To Tune or not to Tune - Page 2 - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums

Blue Thunder2 · 12-26-2011, 01:44 PM

Mods like that should definitely be tuned. Whether or not you have an auto. If you don't tune, you are relying on the O2 sensors to make all the adjustments for you. Then, your O2 fails or the afr is so out of whack that the O2 can't correct it and your car will run like complete crap. Do yourself a favor....get it tuned. Your engine and transmission will thank you.

Steck · 12-26-2011, 04:59 PM

A failed O2 will cause problems even on a tuned car.

The biggest factor is torque reporting with automatics. Everything else pails in comparison for importance.

Blue Thunder2 · 12-26-2011, 09:17 PM

Except for an extremely lean condition in the motor which can be caused by a lack of tuning and will cause detonation and blowing holes in pistons. Or an extremely rich condition that will cause fuel to mix with oil and in turn cause premature bearing wear. If afr and timing are right, and an O2 fails, they will just shut down and run the computer off of the calibrations that were performed by your tuner. If done properly, the only way you will know you had a failure is because of a check engine light. When your tuner tunes the car properly, your O2s could be completely removed and your car still run at a 14.68 afr for normal driving and a 12.5-13.0 afr at wot over and over and over again. It just uses the O2s to make sure it's perfect. All of these things are of the same importance. A $2500 transmission or a $10,000 engine. Point being....if you want things right, call a tuner.

Steck · 12-27-2011, 07:44 AM

A failed O2 does not cause the PCM to default to open loop. If one gets stuck lean or rich, it WILL drive that bank's air/fuel ratio way off of target. Ever see an O2 extension with a crossed wire? Or a sensor that has been damaged by leaded fuel? Both scenarios throw the fueling way off.

A cold air intake on a stock tune is not going to blow anything up. MAF housings do not change drastically enough to end up running in the 8-9 AFR range, and if the housing gets bigger then yes, it will run leaner but the LTFTs carry into WOT, so that will just end up dumping enough fuel to compensate (not to mention knock sensors are pretty forgiving). Is there power left on the table? Of course. Is it dangerous to the engine to leave it on a stock tune? No. Blowers and internal engine modifications are another issue though.

The transmission is the problem in this case. It heavily relies on the MAF to generate delivered torque values which are used in the shift logic and also used in the learning algorithms to help determine the cause of a shift not completing correctly. Without valid torque estimates, the learning procedure also suffers. Over time, the transmission will fail the clutch packs.

VADR_H8R · 12-27-2011, 09:28 AM

If you got a Predator tune you could put the stock tune back before any warranty work is done.

clarkshome · 12-27-2011, 09:49 AM

I do have the auto. Finally purchased all mods. I have the Airaid CAI, JBA High Flow Cats, Flowmaster American Thunder Cat Backs and I will definately be getting the SCT X3 tuner and tune. Thanks for all the help.

geaux_tigerss · 12-30-2011, 06:02 PM

The pipe diameter requirements before and after the sensor are to reduce turbulence induced noise in the flow measurement. I refuse to believe that a cold air intake could affect the MAF calibration to a damaging degree without throwing a check engine code for emissions or affecting drivability.

Steck · 12-30-2011, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geaux_tigerss

The pipe diameter requirements before and after the sensor are to reduce turbulence induced noise in the flow measurement. I refuse to believe that a cold air intake could affect the MAF calibration to a damaging degree without throwing a check engine code for emissions or affecting drivability.

It will impact the transmission the greatest. You're right though, on a system that throws it very far off, a CEL will typically pop up for system lean (or rich, but usually it's Bank 1 and 2 lean).

Ventmaster · 12-31-2011, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steck@Craven

It will impact the transmission the greatest. You're right though, on a system that throws it very far off, a CEL will typically pop up for system lean (or rich, but usually it's Bank 1 and 2 lean).

So now you're saying a CAI and catback that does not throw a code, while perhaps not ideal, probably won't hurt the automatic trans?

Camaro Steve · 01-01-2012, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steck@Craven

The transmission is the problem in this case. It heavily relies on the MAF to generate delivered torque values which are used in the shift logic and also used in the learning algorithms to help determine the cause of a shift not completing correctly. Without valid torque estimates, the learning procedure also suffers. Over time, the transmission will fail the clutch packs.

I'm new to the Camaro, but have had experiance with the Pedator on my Ford Lightning (canned and email tunes).
I plan on doing the usual mods to the camaro (cold air/cat back, maybe shorties). From what I have read I should replace the stock MAF with a new GM one (mines 2011) is this right?
Also is a "canned" SCT tune good enough as far as the trans. tuning goes?
Not planning on any racing, just a good DD.

white ZL1 · 01-01-2012, 12:25 PM

Dave,
Your concern about MAF and torque calculations is only applicable in cars modified past simple bolt-ons, correct?
Knowing how far most stock calibrations are off, I question how adding a CAI to an otherwise stock car would cause the 6L80E to eat itself?
That said, with the little changes I've made thus far in my car I think all A6 owners need to have a good tuner set up their L99 for them.....even on a stock car.

Steck · 01-02-2012, 08:28 AM

A cold air intake impacts the MAF housing. This throws the MAF calibration off, consequently skewing torque reporting.

*mlee* · 01-02-2012, 08:40 AM

The MAF learns the new airflow for most CAI's out there and does not require a tune... I've watched this process take place in EFI Live while testing Vararam... If it throws a code then I say you have a problem...

What gives here? Why now are we tuning for a simple CAI replacement? The Jannetty CAI test lists the ones that do and do not require tune...

To the OP... I would not blow my warranty for a CAI and Catback install... wait until you install LT headers.

Rhino79 · 01-02-2012, 08:50 AM

The MAF doesn't adjust anything. Its just a meter to report air measurement and temp. Fuel will be adjusted in closed loop yes, but thats via o2 feedback. The MAF table is precalibrated for the factory induction(its not even dead on for it). Once you change flow before or more importantly after it, it effects the readings. Do you have to tune, no. For best results and accuracy, yes tune it.

12-26-2011, 09:17 PM	#17
Blue Thunder2 Drives: 2011 Camaro 2SS RS M6 Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 62	Except for an extremely lean condition in the motor which can be caused by a lack of tuning and will cause detonation and blowing holes in pistons. Or an extremely rich condition that will cause fuel to mix with oil and in turn cause premature bearing wear. If afr and timing are right, and an O2 fails, they will just shut down and run the computer off of the calibrations that were performed by your tuner. If done properly, the only way you will know you had a failure is because of a check engine light. When your tuner tunes the car properly, your O2s could be completely removed and your car still run at a 14.68 afr for normal driving and a 12.5-13.0 afr at wot over and over and over again. It just uses the O2s to make sure it's perfect. All of these things are of the same importance. A $2500 transmission or a $10,000 engine. Point being....if you want things right, call a tuner. __________________ 2011 Camaro 2SS/RS. TSP Exhaust, PRC Heads, Vengeance Racing Kaotik Cam .....Assembled and Tuned by BT2R

12-27-2011, 09:49 AM	#20
clarkshome Drives: 2012 Inferno Orange SS Camaro Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Miramar, Florida Posts: 86	I do have the auto. Finally purchased all mods. I have the Airaid CAI, JBA High Flow Cats, Flowmaster American Thunder Cat Backs and I will definately be getting the SCT X3 tuner and tune. Thanks for all the help. __________________ " It Is Better To Die On Your Feet Than To Spend A Lifetime Living On Your Knees"

12-30-2011, 06:02 PM	#21
geaux_tigerss Drives: 2019 GMC Sierra 1500 AT4 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Orange, TX Posts: 740	The pipe diameter requirements before and after the sensor are to reduce turbulence induced noise in the flow measurement. I refuse to believe that a cold air intake could affect the MAF calibration to a damaging degree without throwing a check engine code for emissions or affecting drivability. __________________ 2019 GMC Sierra 1500 AT4 Summit White 6" Lift, 37x13.50R24's

01-02-2012, 08:40 AM	#27
mlee CamaroFans.com Drives: ZLE & ZR2 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Conroe, TX Posts: 38,027 View My Garage	The MAF learns the new airflow for most CAI's out there and does not require a tune... I've watched this process take place in EFI Live while testing Vararam... If it throws a code then I say you have a problem... What gives here? Why now are we tuning for a simple CAI replacement? The Jannetty CAI test lists the ones that do and do not require tune... To the OP... I would not blow my warranty for a CAI and Catback install... wait until you install LT headers. __________________

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12-26-2011, 01:44 PM	#15
Blue Thunder2 Drives: 2011 Camaro 2SS RS M6 Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 62	Mods like that should definitely be tuned. Whether or not you have an auto. If you don't tune, you are relying on the O2 sensors to make all the adjustments for you. Then, your O2 fails or the afr is so out of whack that the O2 can't correct it and your car will run like complete crap. Do yourself a favor....get it tuned. Your engine and transmission will thank you.

12-26-2011, 04:59 PM	#16
Steck Account Suspended Drives: 2006 twin turbo Corvette Z06 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 114	A failed O2 will cause problems even on a tuned car. The biggest factor is torque reporting with automatics. Everything else pails in comparison for importance.

12-27-2011, 07:44 AM	#18
Steck Account Suspended Drives: 2006 twin turbo Corvette Z06 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 114	A failed O2 does not cause the PCM to default to open loop. If one gets stuck lean or rich, it WILL drive that bank's air/fuel ratio way off of target. Ever see an O2 extension with a crossed wire? Or a sensor that has been damaged by leaded fuel? Both scenarios throw the fueling way off. A cold air intake on a stock tune is not going to blow anything up. MAF housings do not change drastically enough to end up running in the 8-9 AFR range, and if the housing gets bigger then yes, it will run leaner but the LTFTs carry into WOT, so that will just end up dumping enough fuel to compensate (not to mention knock sensors are pretty forgiving). Is there power left on the table? Of course. Is it dangerous to the engine to leave it on a stock tune? No. Blowers and internal engine modifications are another issue though. The transmission is the problem in this case. It heavily relies on the MAF to generate delivered torque values which are used in the shift logic and also used in the learning algorithms to help determine the cause of a shift not completing correctly. Without valid torque estimates, the learning procedure also suffers. Over time, the transmission will fail the clutch packs.

12-27-2011, 09:28 AM	#19
VADR_H8R Drives: 2011 camaro 1ss synergy green Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: greensburg Posts: 444	If you got a Predator tune you could put the stock tune back before any warranty work is done.

01-01-2012, 12:25 PM	#25
white ZL1 Drives: none Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: DFW area Posts: 1,844	Dave, Your concern about MAF and torque calculations is only applicable in cars modified past simple bolt-ons, correct? Knowing how far most stock calibrations are off, I question how adding a CAI to an otherwise stock car would cause the 6L80E to eat itself? That said, with the little changes I've made thus far in my car I think all A6 owners need to have a good tuner set up their L99 for them.....even on a stock car.

01-02-2012, 08:28 AM	#26
Steck Account Suspended Drives: 2006 twin turbo Corvette Z06 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 114	A cold air intake impacts the MAF housing. This throws the MAF calibration off, consequently skewing torque reporting.

01-02-2012, 08:50 AM	#28
Rhino79 Drives: 2010 Camaro SS L99/Auto Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Cabot, AR Posts: 2,827 View My Garage	The MAF doesn't adjust anything. Its just a meter to report air measurement and temp. Fuel will be adjusted in closed loop yes, but thats via o2 feedback. The MAF table is precalibrated for the factory induction(its not even dead on for it). Once you change flow before or more importantly after it, it effects the readings. Do you have to tune, no. For best results and accuracy, yes tune it.