Al O. believes ZL1 still faster

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by 95birdible

Another question concerning the tops. When will this fix be complete? Are the current fixes being implemented on the line?
Thanks for commenting Scott. All of us vert owners were getting very concerned that nothing was being done.

I understand your concern - and let me assure you that I can't think of any issue on Camaro where there's nothing being done.

A couple of things:

Those of us in CTF Units last winter - (remember my buddy "Helios?" see pic below....) -- were instructed to cycle the top a minimum of TEN times each day - regardless of temperature. We were to 'stop and start' as we cycled the top to put stress on the operating systems as well as the mechanisms themselves....... (Dang it was cold some of those days....) --
This was done to make sure that all was as it should be. In over 1,000 stressed cycles -- in very cold temps many times - Helios never had problems with the top.....there was one small spot that showed wear on the passenger side - and that was addressed when he was turned back in for 'retro-fit' - Most convertibles do not exhibit any problems....some, however, do - and that's what we continue to work on.....to find root cause(s) and correct.

We want ANY problem fixed ASAP - for a couple of reasons. Number 1 - we don't want upset customers! The other is that it isn't inexpensive to replace tops - so we have two strong motivators to solve any problems that may be out there.

I thank those of you with top issues for your patience. You have a warranty.

[spikess581]

Fbodfather, thank you for chiming in. We have been feeling a little left out. We want to be reassured they will be fixed. Mine just went back today for what will be it's 4th 5th bow in about a month and a half. You signed my car and I would rather keep it than get another I just want it fixed once and for all. Wejust want to be kept informed.

[Drago77]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

To make a long story short? When we went Chapter 11 - many suppliers did as well - and even worse, some went Chapter 7 -

We offer a comprehensive warranty -- and we'll stand behind the tops. There are still some isolated issues - but we're not giving up and we intend to make them right.

That is the best news I've read on here since my car went into production last year at this time! Its a definite breath of fresh air to finally hear something from a GM source regarding our tops and the long list of us experiencing these problems!

Id ask you post something similar on one of the convertible threads, there are 2-3 primary threads,


http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...=196964&page=4

And

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142513

I'm sure the rest of us would like to see this as well.

Originally Posted by ffrcobra_65

I'd think they'd fix that on the ZL1.

So for $42k we're entitled to defective tops? But at $60k+ they're expected to be fine?

[HumanWiki]

Originally Posted by Grabber

This is like comparing two great MMA fighters. I can download a Fight program now, enter fighter stats, and boom, I can get a winner that is computer generated. Does that mean it is completely true?

The Human body and soul are not even close to the same as that of a machine. Ours is not one of absolutes and digital systems. It is one of countless untold chemical and electrical interactions that we don't even fully understand at this point in time. We can barely even simulate the Human mind, which goes a long way in to making our bodies do things they shouldn't be able to.

An automobile, for as much anthropomorphizing as we do, is still a mostly predictable object with a given set of rules that will consistently perform to those constraints. It doesn't have drive, passion, will power, emotions -- What it does have are small deviances in builds, compositions, etc. that are the direct result of ourselves being imperfect beings, that can lead to the false belief that it has our level of variance.. Those are just lower level truths that most people aren't truly aware of (and have no need to be) and thus will just attribute to personality. We add in to that mix our current requirement of these machines being driven and powered by emotional beings that are not the same from moment to moment and are subject to fatigue, nervousness, bowel issue, emotional problems due to a recent loss of a loved one, etc... If I die, my car isn't going to be depressed and run like crap.. If I cheat on my Camaro with a Mustang, my Camaro isn't going to come after me or go after my possessions in court.

A car's general makeup is not active and constantly undergoing replacement or division. If it is wounded or impaired, it will not fix itself and will forever stay that way until it is acted upon. The ECU doesn't wake up in a bad mood or tired from being out too late.

I can understand where you're going, but comparing two MMA fighters in a computer simulation to two vehicles in a simulation isn't even close to the same thing, in my opinion.

[htron50]

Originally Posted by HumanWiki

The Human body and soul are not even close to the same as that of a machine. Ours is not one of absolutes and digital systems. It is one of countless untold chemical and electrical interactions that we don't even fully understand at this point in time. We can barely even simulate the Human mind, which goes a long way in to making our bodies do things they shouldn't be able to.

An automobile, for as much anthropomorphizing as we do, is still a mostly predictable object with a given set of rules that will consistently perform to those constraints. It doesn't have drive, passion, will power, emotions -- What it does have are small deviances in builds, compositions, etc. that are the direct result of ourselves being imperfect beings. We add in to that mix our current requirement of these machines being driven and powered by emotional beings that are not the same from moment to moment.

A car's general makeup is not active and constantly undergoing replacement or division. If it is wounded or impaired, it will not fix itself and will forever stay that way until it is acted upon.

I can understand where you're going, but comparing two MMA fighters in a computer simulation to two vehicles in a simulation isn't even close to the same thing, in my opinion.

Now aside from all the physiological and mechanical differences the psychological affects and effects of that explanation will make his brain explode.

[spikess581]

If my top is fixed permantly soon I will sing the praises of GM every day on Camaro 5 for a year to make amends for being nasty. But make it soon please !!!

[HumanWiki]

Originally Posted by htron50

Now aside from all the physiological and mechanical differences the psychological affects and effects of that explanation will make his brain explode.

Hopefully, I didn't come off as a d!ck... I'm just trying to point out that a computer simulation to predict the physical and chemical mechanics of a machine and that of a person are different. Chevrolet, can explain, to the most minute details, the workings of their vehicles... We as a species can't even agree how we came to be on this planet.

[Grabber]

Originally Posted by HumanWiki

The Human body and soul are not even close to the same as that of a machine. Ours is not one of absolutes and digital systems. It is one of countless untold chemical and electrical interactions that we don't even fully understand at this point in time. We can barely even simulate the Human mind, which goes a long way in to making our bodies do things they shouldn't be able to.

An automobile, for as much anthropomorphizing as we do, is still a mostly predictable object with a given set of rules that will consistently perform to those constraints. It doesn't have drive, passion, will power, emotions -- What it does have are small deviances in builds, compositions, etc. that are the direct result of ourselves being imperfect beings, that can lead to the false belief that it has our level of variance.. Those are just lower level truths that most people aren't truly aware of (and have no need to be) and thus will just attribute to personality. We add in to that mix our current requirement of these machines being driven and powered by emotional beings that are not the same from moment to moment and are subject to fatigue, nervousness, bowel issue, emotional problems due to a recent loss of a loved one, etc... If I die, my car isn't going to be depressed and run like crap.. If I cheat on my Camaro with a Mustang, my Camaro isn't going to come after me or go after my possessions in court.

A car's general makeup is not active and constantly undergoing replacement or division. If it is wounded or impaired, it will not fix itself and will forever stay that way until it is acted upon. The ECU doesn't wake up in a bad mood or tired from being out too late.

I can understand where you're going, but comparing two MMA fighters in a computer simulation to two vehicles in a simulation isn't even close to the same thing, in my opinion.

...

OK, let's do this.

Let's run a simulation test on a PS4 and Xbox 370 (Both have very similar specs and will be released soon)

Same thing. Unless both systems are actually put to the test once released, you can do all of the calculating and simulation training you want, it still won't show which is better. Same goes for comparing a F/A 18 Hornet to a Raptor 22 on paper and in a computer. (This is obviously under the impression they don't exist yet) they both look and sound like they will be amazing machines, right? Only real life tests will show which performs better.

Just saying is all

[HumanWiki]

^The Human being is going to be the hardest thing to simulate.. and that's where we run in to this issue.... All the simulations in the world don't mean anything unless it can be proven. That's just how we are as life forms. We mostly need proof.... Well, to do that, we need drivers.... Drivers are Human and the best driver in the world is still a flawed being and subject to "breaking the rules"... So, real life sometimes doesn't live up to simulation and we'll blame the platform instead of the fact that real life doesn't have perfect conditions and isn't as easily controllable as a computer simulation.

Which one is correct? Who knows.. I'm not a philosopher... There are plenty of things that we have no math understanding of, but exist and happen right in front of us...

[htron50]

Originally Posted by HumanWiki

Hopefully, I didn't come off as a d!ck... I'm just trying to point out that a computer simulation to predict the physical and chemical mechanics of a machine and that of a person are different. Chevrolet, can explain, to the most minute details, the workings of their vehicles... We as a species can't even agree how we came to be on this planet.

No you didn't come off like that. It was a sound basis for arguing the contest being served up. I still think the variables, even on the same day, cannot be made "even"..... hell, you could race two cars on the same day at the same time and one driver may still be sleepy.

[Grabber]

Originally Posted by HumanWiki

^The Human being is going to be the hardest thing to simulate.. and that's where we run in to this issue.... All the simulations in the world don't mean anything unless it can be proven. That's just how we are as life forms. We mostly need proof.... Well, to do that, we need drivers.... Drivers are Human and the best driver in the world is still a flawed being and subject to "breaking the rules"... So, real life sometimes doesn't live up to simulation and we'll blame the platform instead of the fact that real life doesn't have perfect conditions and isn't as easily controllable as a computer simulation.

I agree to an extent.

Since this is the real world, NOTHING is perfect.

That is why the only "true" and "fair" comparison is to take two human beings with similar skill levels, put them in similarly performing cars, and race.

Otherwise, if we are just running on simulations, I will pop in Need for Speed shift, build a GT500 and decimate all. (I lol'd a bit here)

[MS3DALE]

On the Vert top issue......I'm going to add to what Scott said to reassure you guys,and he can confirm this for me,even if the fix comes "after" your 3/36 bumper-to-bumper warranty expires....Its safe to say that GM will still take care of the problem for you at no charge,just make sure you have the current issue documented from your dealer while your car is under warranty.
I had this happen to me,back in '98 when the GMT800 trucks first came out I special ordered one,I ordered it with the sliding rear window as I always do on my trucks,well after a few months the plastic frame of the window cracked and it leaked,so we replaced,a few months later it cracked,we replaced it again,finally after the 3rd one I just used some silicone and filled in the crack,being aware of the issue GM put the sliding rear window option on constraint and dropped it from the option list for the 2000 model-year,it wasn't until mid-'03 until they came out with a permanent fix,and by that time my truck was well out of warranty both time and mileage-wise,but because I had the issue before the warranty expired GM paid to replace the rear window for me.
OK...Back to the ZL1 topic!

[HumanWiki]

Originally Posted by htron50

No you didn't come off like that. It was a sound basis for arguing the contest being served up. I still think the variables, even on the same day, cannot be made "even"..... hell, you could race two cars on the same day at the same time and one driver may still be sleepy.

Right... Because the same driver, even on the same day will have changed on a fundamental level... There are more variables than we are equipped to handle and there are too many unknowns that can creep in.. But, I guess that's where people that are great with stats and such can come in and dismiss data that lays outside where it should be and such...

[HumanWiki]

Originally Posted by Grabber

I agree to an extent.

Since this is the real world, NOTHING is perfect.

That is why the only "true" and "fair" comparison is to take two human beings with similar skill levels, put them in similarly performing cars, and race.

Otherwise, if we are just running on simulations, I will pop in Need for Speed shift, build a GT500 and decimate all. (I lol'd a bit here)

I will agree to an extent as well... Even two "similar" performing drivers aren't the same. Weight, height, age, gender, upbringing, even down to their past experiences will have caused the connections in their mind to form in different patterns leading to different organic circuits that respond differently.. We can condition ourselves to think one way or the other with training, but there are some hardwired bits of our brain that can, and do, under certain circumstances react before our conscious self. All these things have to be accounted for when saying how something will or won't perform when a Human is driving it in the real world.. I know we can get close to things and we throw out obvious errors.. But, the corner you may attempt with a certain speed and approach angle I may tackle totally differently, even with the same training, experience behind the wheel and track time.. Maybe something triggered at that moment that made me lift the gas fractions of a second later than you, or start a turn slightly before you did.. etc. etc. etc.

Sadly, things like that along with our unique goals and passions in our lives will probably keep us in the process of defending to the bloody end our ways and teams... It's a good and bad thing... How we react to those around us, I guess, are the only things we can truly control.... Since this place isn't an instant interaction and we're all required to slow our normal speech down to typing speeds.. We have those crucial moments to truly understand what it is we're about to say or type, before we do it..