Al O. believes ZL1 still faster

[8cd03gro]

You can't, "simulate" a car if you don't know the specs. Put 580hp in an SS, it's not going to run with a ZL1 on track. That's about as useful as comparing the new gt500 to the current one. Almost nothing beyond the chassis is the same. You can't simulate without the proper inputs and without knowing how power is delivered, launch control settings, how the car squats, what the spring and damper settings are, what weight distribution is like, how much pressure the tires are running, and anything else. Simulations don't mean jack unless the inputs are accurate and the fact of the matter is, Chevy doesn't have those specs unless they stole them from Ford. The gt500 could come out running mid 11's or it could come out still running bottom 12's. It's a FACT that we don't know enough yet, and neither does Chevy.

[ffrcobra_65]

ok this thread is getting too "smart" for my pee brain.

[motorhead]

WOW! Talk about a derailed thread. Well, back to the OP. This thread is kind of silly. Does anyone really believe that Al would say anything any different. Come on folks.

You can say whatever you want ,but until it's backed up with facts it doesn't mean anything. I believe the ZL1 will still beat the GT500 even with 650, 670 or whatever HP they say it has. That's not a huge difference considering the highly refined set up under the ZL1. Also the fact remains that Ford doesn't seem to want to tell us what they ran in Germany. That speaks volumes right there.

[95birdible]

Scott you said you cycled your top in the winter. Did you do any driving at all with the top down? I think this is where the problems are coming from. The moving of the top in the well. More of your wonderful insight please.

[SUX2BU]

Originally Posted by 95birdible

Scott you said you cycled your top in the winter. Did you do any driving at all with the top down? I think this is where the problems are coming from. The moving of the top in the well. More of your wonderful insight please.

Moving? More like bouncing around like a girl in a rap video.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

something to think about.....

I found out years and years ago that when you post something on the 'net - it NEVER goes away. When you make statements, there are those who will hunt your words down and try to beat you over the head with them. And if the words don't quite fit the case - they'll twist them in an effort to make them fit the 'purpose' or 'agenda' - (more about that 'agenda' thing in a minute.....)

Now - I happen to know and work with Al Oppenheiser.

I've worked with many great engineers over the past 35 years......and I can honestly say that I've never worked with a more 'down-to-earth' - 'passionate' - 'driven' - 'team-driven' fellow ever.....

Do you honestly think he'd be foolish enough to post something like he has if he didn't have reason to believe what he's posting?

Do you not think he has thought this through and understands that IF he's wrong he loses credibility?

Has it occurred to some that they really need to think before they type? I'm here to tell you that I've NEVER seen a Chief Engineer take EVERY warranty claim to heart like Al does. I've witnessed his weekly warranty reviews.......and while we strive to have zero warranty claims and a perfect car, we also know that pulling 18,000 parts together - -and putting out a performance car -- is going to have a share of problems. And the way to fix any problem is to find root cause - and fix it thru the cooperation of engineers and suppliers and manufacturing.....and we're hell-bent on 'gettin' it done'........


Now -

I've been watching these threads and I'm witnessing a couple of things:

-- there are those who post - but they don't tell you what they drive - or perhaps where they live - no - rather, they're 'clever' - and that makes me question their 'agenda' -

-- there are those who are obviously Mustang Fans. That's fine. Let's face it -- do you really believe that the horsepower wars would be on had the Camaro and Challenger not come back to market? If you believe that Ford would be producing something as powerful as the GT-500 - you're simply mistaken......so my point is this: Competition is A GOOD THING - because YOU THE CONSUMER WIN! But please don't come over here (a site with 'camaro' in the name) and use the word 'Fanboy' - it's insulting. If you want to insult someone - perhaps you might find another site without the word 'Camaro' in it........

-- there are those who are proclaiming 'this' and 'that' - and I seriously doubt that any of these people have ever engineered a car or truck. Further - I can't imagine how anyone can make proclamations if they haven't driven the cars at this point...... (...and before someone tries to respond to the last few words - you may be surprised at what 'simulations' can be done these days within the walls of the manufacturer - )


So - perhaps a few people need to learn a little bit about 'respect' -- and 'civility' -

And to our Camaro Faithful - I hope that any of you who might journey over to a Mustang site will exhibit behavior that's thoughtful and courteous.

AMEN, FBODFATHER!!!

Originally Posted by ffrcobra_65

I dunno....be humble so if things don't go all his way, no harm no foul?

Humility has left Chevy as a second-fiddle in this game...so many (especially the magazines) willing to take Ford's word as gospel, and dismiss Chevy's endeavors shortly thereafter. We've seen it happen time and again. I'm not bitter -- the Mustang came first, and has been in production the longest, after all.

Ever hear the phrase, "A good defense is a good offense"? I think they're trying to give the Camaro a fighting chance...so they're not going to hold back nearly as much as they have in the past. Besides, I'd hardly call what he's said as an "attack"...so the above cliche might be a bit of an exaggeration.

Anyways...a final thought I have is that if he's confident beyond a doubt...there's not much reason to be humble.

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

It's a FACT that we don't know enough yet, and neither does Chevy.

You think.....but I'm willing to bet they know much more than they let on. They CERTAINLY know more than we do: Remember, these companies all use similar suppliers...or else they know who to talk to to get part information. And as Fbodfather stated earlier...Al is a smart man, and he wouldn't make a statement that'd go public if he wasn't fairly confident about it.

If I were a simulation engineer, I'd equip my digi-GT500 in the best-case scenario (from Ford's standpoint)...and gauge using that.

[MauriSSio]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Humility has left Chevy as a second-fiddle in this game...so many (especially the magazines) willing to take Ford's word as gospel, and dismiss Chevy's endeavors shortly thereafter. We've seen it happen time and again. I'm not bitter -- the Mustang came first, and has been in production the longest, after all. ...

which ford words are the magazines taking as gospel? what has ford even been saying?

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

AMEN, FBODFATHER!!!


Humility has left Chevy as a second-fiddle in this game...so many (especially the magazines) willing to take Ford's word as gospel, and dismiss Chevy's endeavors shortly thereafter. We've seen it happen time and again. I'm not bitter -- the Mustang came first, and has been in production the longest, after all.

Ever hear the phrase, "A good defense is a good offense"? I think they're trying to give the Camaro a fighting chance...so they're not going to hold back nearly as much as they have in the past. Besides, I'd hardly call what he's said as an "attack"...so the above cliche might be a bit of an exaggeration.

Anyways...a final thought I have is that if he's confident beyond a doubt...there's not much reason to be humble.



You think.....but I'm willing to bet they know much more than they let on. They CERTAINLY know more than we do: Remember, these companies all use similar suppliers...or else they know who to talk to to get part information. And as Fbodfather stated earlier...Al is a smart man, and he wouldn't make a statement that'd go public if he wasn't fairly confident about it.

If I were a simulation engineer, I'd equip my digi-GT500 in the best-case scenario (from Ford's standpoint)...and gauge using that.

How would individual suppliers know the suspension settings, the weight distribution, launch control settings, power curve or any of the information they would need for such a simulation? One supplier might now the specs of the control arms, the thickness of the sway bars, or the weight of the driveshaft, but that's about it and they'd be breaking the law and risking a contract with Ford to do so. In all likelihood, the stock specs of the 2013 gt500 aren't even completely figured yet. Confidence is one thing. That's fine and who knows, it may be justified. Taking his statement as absolute fact simply because he said it and he's a smart man is a stretch. The 2011 gt500 could do 0-60 around 4 flat and the new one will hit 60 in first gear, has launch control and a revised diff and axle. You don't need a simulator to tell you it's probably going to be very, very close to the zl1 0-60 times. Don't forget he's in the business of selling Camaros, just like the Ford boys are in the business of selling Mustangs.

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

Chevy doesn't have those specs unless they stole them from Ford. \.

X 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. (a record)
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[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by 95birdible

Scott you said you cycled your top in the winter. Did you do any driving at all with the top down? I think this is where the problems are coming from. The moving of the top in the well. More of your wonderful insight please.

wellllll..........I didn't do 70mph on I-94 -- but on days that the sun came out - and it was above freezing......YES! (...I know....I'm nuts....)

Is it Saturday or Sunday? Check

Is the sun out? Check

Sunglasses on? Check

Top down? Check

......time to cruise Lakeshore Drive and Jefferson Avenue in "The Pointes" and St. Clair Shores.............

Also important to note: CTF cars were all over the U.S. and Canada - the goal is to accumulate mileage quickly - (great excuse to drive to Florida and back!)

[mmarx82]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

Also important to note: CTF cars were all over the U.S. and Canada - the goal is to accumulate mileage quickly - (great excuse to drive to Florida and back!)

Next time you guys need to accumulate mileage quickly let me know.
My brother-in-law is moving to San Fran and I'm only about an hour from the Atlantic. It would be pretty cool to drive from one ocean to the other and back (especially at GM's expense...)

[nanokpsi]

If you think about it, he really only claims the ZL1 will be quicker 0-60, meaning he well knows the GT500 will be faster and quicker in the quarter mile. Given the power to weight I think most see that as a no brainer to both enthusiasts, and computer simulations.

HE believes the ZL1 would be quicker on the 'Ring, which will likely never be proven one way or the other, as Ford has not ever rented out the track to close it down to traffic like GM does.

I am sure they are making some asumptions about the GT500s ability to get out of the hole with the new launch and traction control, but at the end of the day I imagine they won't be too far off.

I guess you can look at it a few different ways...
Either you will see Al as a passionate guy who believes in his product, a ****y guy that doesn't think he can or will be disproven anyways, or just a head engineer playing defense to bolster up his product in the face of some pretty serious competition.

As far as "suppliers talking" and "knowing more about eachothers products than you think, I don't think that is the case at all when it comes to the new GT500's output, as evidenced by the rushed letter to Camaro faithful.

Again, I am a current GT500 ownder (2010), but I am definately not a super brand loyal guy. Personally, I thought the ZL1 would have come out years ago, and I always said I would buy the one with the stronger factory motor. The delay of the ZL1 pushed my hand anyways so I picked mine up a little over a year ago. The be honest, I am a little bummed about both car chioce of internals. The GT500's are stronger, but I don't see why they didn't spend the extra $55 per rod and give it a true forged rod. Since my car already has the 2.3l TVS, I am not in a huge rush to upgrade to the 2013 since it has simlar internals. I say all of that to show I have no "agenda", I could could just as easily purchase one of the other.

[armysig]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

wellllll..........I didn't do 70mph on I-94 -- but on days that the sun came out - and it was above freezing......YES! (...I know....I'm nuts....)

Is it Saturday or Sunday? Check

Is the sun out? Check

Sunglasses on? Check

Top down? Check

......time to cruise Lakeshore Drive and Jefferson Avenue in "The Pointes" and St. Clair Shores.............

Also important to note: CTF cars were all over the U.S. and Canada - the goal is to accumulate mileage quickly - (great excuse to drive to Florida and back!)

Send me one of those bad boy CTF vehicles and I'll put some miles on it. I live in AZ but my family is in Minnesota, so that will give the poor car some enviromental changes...Just don't ask me to put a top down in the middle of the winter in Duluth...My parents are going threw a cold snap right now and they have been seeing temps well below -10, add the wind chill and it's -25 to -35...

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

X 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. (a record)
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...............we confess!...............

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.......an' we're all sitting in the corner.........

Ford private network <----------------------> Al O

So what you're saying is GM does have the '13 gt500 details that Ford hasnt released yet? How? Either gm doesn't have the details, which i'm inclined to believe, Ford is in the business of giving their biggest competitor privileged info, or someone breached contract to give it to them. What doesn't make sense there? A month or two ago everyone was shocked by the 650hp figure. Based on GM's response, it seems like they were too, but now GM has all the details that nobody else has? On top of that, we're talking about a gt500 that runs 0-60 in 4.1 right now and a camaro that does 0-60 in 3.9. The new one has better gearing for 60 (how much time do you think taking out a shift before 60 is worth?), more power/torque and launch control. Unless you actually built the '13 gt500 from the ground up and tested it, how in the world are you going to use simulations to draw a conclusive winner here? Do you see where this is hard to swallow for the people without bowtie shades on? If A Ford engineer came out and said they had run simulations and will post a faster 0-60 time we would be having the exact opposite conversation, but there is far more information available about the ZL1 than the gt500. Like I said, confidence is one thing and it very well may be justified, but just taking a statement as fact because you trust the person that made it is about as useful as quoting the Bible in a scientific debate. All I'm saying is, the only people that know the 0-60 time of an actual '13 gt500 is Ford. That's a fact.