Padre's SS: Let the Modding Begin! (pics&vids) [COTW 10/28/13]

[SixGracing]

Originally Posted by Padre

I went with the 1000hp-crank Aeromotive 5th Gen Camaro pump (18673) - 600lbs/hr, with 80lb injectors. I think at WOT we were under 70% injector duty cycle.

I didn't go with the ZL1 pump because I thought it was rated to only 580-crank. Since I'm over 700-crank, I didn't imagine it would work without a BAP. That's why I'd love to hear how you do. If you can get it working fine, then maybe it is much better than its rating. As it is my Aeromotive is noticeably noisy. Scares the little old ladies at Kroger when I turn on the ignition and the fuel pump primes.

Suspension is something I would put a lot of research into. I bought the lowering springs and sways without planning, just thining they would help, but discovered that they hurt my 60-foot.

I love Pedders, but if you go that route, plan plan plan, then recheck your plan. I saw one vendor from here (Hendrix) at the track with a Pedders full drag package, and it was so tight he could not hook AT ALL. He had to put 400lbs worth of junk in the trunk to get a 1.8 sixty. So plan plan plan, and plan.

Of course, my goals were drag racing, and your's may be different.

Padre

Great idea Padre, it does seem that you were very focused and did some amazing things to your car by planning, trial and error, tuning, etc. Maybe where you didn't invest a lot of time originally into the suspension aspect, or at least didn't post a lot of information about it, I can pick up and spend some quality research and trial into the best set-up for suspension mods. I too would like to get some great times for dragging and fully intend on racing my car. Utah where I am from, even though I work in Vegas, will be my main place for racing. Both Utah and Vegas have some great tracks. Utah has the Bonneville speedway for quarter mile races. Vegas also has some great tracks. So I should have plenty of places to test out my choices in suspension. I'll definitely keep everyone in the loop via my build thread on how it all turns out.

With your excellent logging of your engine build and hopefully my trials with suspension, we can assemble a very effective and mean package for our particular model of Camaro since we both have a 2SS L99 originally. I do know this is great stuff and I thoroughly enjoy the threads, the cars and soon the racing. Gets my adrenaline pumping.

I'm going to start by talking to the folks at Eibach and Pedders and see what their recommendations are. I like to start off with a feel for both customer service, knowledge, willingness to help etc. Then maybe make a choice. I do however want the engine work completed first so I can test the suspension on my car once it's on steroids. I'll document and hopefully have some good information for everyone soon...

-to be continued..

[Padre]

Ken, key thing when doing the suspension is one thing at a time. I Should have done sways first, then lowering springs. Because I didn't, when the sixties were no longer consistent, I didn't know what to blaim. Plus, I had done other engine mods with it (like the EWP).

So, I had a lot of patience for most of my build. You'll benefit from patience when you begin your suspension trials.

Padre

[SixGracing]

Did quite a bit of calling and talking today with suspension people. So far looks like Pfadt racing has the most promising stuff geared towards Camaro's and drag racing. They have some beautiful packages from extreme drag racing to racers that still want a daily driver. The Eibach rep steered me away from their products for drag racing so I moved on to Pedders, who also seem to have more of a track set up than a drag set up. I was told to look at Pfadt's products so I called a rep and he recommended their stage 3 line for drag racers who still want to drive their car on the road. I will post more information as I gather it. Here's a link to Pfadt's website and info on the stage 3 kit. http://www.pfadtracing.com/catalog/p...roducts_id/186

Also Padre, I had a question about the wastegate application. Where exactly did you mount it and do you feel it helped and how exactly does it help? Does it allow the SC to boost quicker? I want to approach my builder/tuner with this if it will be advantageous in my build.

Ken

[Camarowguy]

All I plan on doing is drag shocks and control arms for wheel hop. I pull 1.8's on stock tires. I feel like that will be a good start. Sometimes you can go overboard. Lowering mine is not in the plans.

[2010 4 DW]

Originally Posted by Camarowguy

All I plan on doing is drag shocks and control arms for wheel hop. I pull 1.8's on stock tires. I feel like that will be a good start. Sometimes you can go overboard. Lowering mine is not in the plans.

Your 1/4 miles times are great for street tires. You will be in the 11's in no time.

[SinisterEcho]

Originally Posted by Padre

Love it! With the wastegate mod, the boost comes on part throttle, so it approaches the part-throttle performance of roots superchargers (Maggie, Whipple), while benefiting from the top-end of the centrifugals (ProCharger). Since my focus is drag racing, this works great for me, plus it gives me a daily driver that scares the horses.

Padre

Thats a great little tidbit to know. I will have to look into that when I go to pull the trigger on mine.

Yeah the IAT is what was what had me shying away from the Roots style. However I love the look of a whipple But its Procharger or bust for my car.

[SixGracing]

Originally Posted by Camarowguy

All I plan on doing is drag shocks and control arms for wheel hop. I pull 1.8's on stock tires. I feel like that will be a good start. Sometimes you can go overboard. Lowering mine is not in the plans.

When I was talking to Jarrett at Pfadt racing today he said the stage three is perfect for this application and what makes the drag racing better are the Rear trailing arms and the solid rear subframe bushings. These items keep the power distributed evenly on launch and get rid of tire hop. The drop springs, sway bars and tie rods help the overall handling and ride of the car when you're doing normal driving. Unless you are going for full on Drag racing with your Camaro, this sounds like a pretty nice set-up. I'm going to do a little more checking but think I'm going to consider this package. Once I get the engine mods done, I'll run the car a few times to see what my 60' times are then add this package and see where I can improve. Probably start messing with tires after that.

[calbert1999]

Originally Posted by Padre

Love it! With the wastegate mod, the boost comes on part throttle, so it approaches the part-throttle performance of roots superchargers (Maggie, Whipple), while benefiting from the top-end of the centrifugals (ProCharger). Since my focus is drag racing, this works great for me, plus it gives me a daily driver that scares the horses.

Padre

PM me; We were discussing this today at my shop as we attempted this mod as well, you'll be interested in the analysis we did and comparison of charts.

Originally Posted by Padre

One of the other great benefits of this setup is the IATs. I decide against a roots style supercharger when I saw my GT500 nemesis at the track sitting for a half-hour between runs with ice on the intercooler.

With the Stage-II Intercooler, so far my IATs are great. I haven't tested it with heat soak at the track, but I anticipate it will be good.

Padre

The roots guys can't get their heads wrapped around this concept. Our centris never touch the engine so the heat doesn't transfer, and the air it sucks in is cooled before going into the engine. With lower compression as well (on a stroked / forged engine) we never have issues with IAT or knocking, no meth required.

Originally Posted by Padre

I went with the 1000hp-crank Aeromotive 5th Gen Camaro pump (18673) - 600lbs/hr, with 80lb injectors. I think at WOT we were under 70% injector duty cycle.

I didn't go with the ZL1 pump because I thought it was rated to only 580-crank. Since I'm over 700-crank, I didn't imagine it would work without a BAP. That's why I'd love to hear how you do. If you can get it working fine, then maybe it is much better than its rating. As it is my Aeromotive is noticeably noisy. Scares the little old ladies at Kroger when I turn on the ignition and the fuel pump primes.

Suspension is something I would put a lot of research into. I bought the lowering springs and sways without planning, just thining they would help, but discovered that they hurt my 60-foot.

I love Pedders, but if you go that route, plan plan plan, then recheck your plan. I saw one vendor from here (Hendrix) at the track with a Pedders full drag package, and it was so tight he could not hook AT ALL. He had to put 400lbs worth of junk in the trunk to get a 1.8 sixty. So plan plan plan, and plan.

Of course, my goals were drag racing, and your's may be different.

Padre

You're right on the money man, I can tell you really do your research and ask alot of questions, I do the same so kudos to you.

Anyone, who would tell me at this poing anything about using ZL1 parts on my SS, I'm out the door, and further if they start tellimg me about replacing my pump and getting a BAP, I'd ask them for a refund on anything they've done on my vehicle and put it back the way it was.
ZL1 parts are just that, ZL1 parts. Anyone who plans on doing any work on their SS's or ZL1's to 600rwhp. will have to rip out their pump, injectors, and perhaps even the rails to get a proper fuel system in there for any real power. The ZL1 pump is great for a ZL1 because the ZL1 makes a mere 550 or something HP, so that pump is fine.

If anyone says you need a ZL1 pump and a BAP on your D-1SC setup with 65# injector you better run, and run fast, real fast dude. Why do I say this? Because, you might as well use the extra $400 (BAP budget), for a serious Livernois, ADM or Aeromotive pump.

As for suspension you're right on the money. SPI has Full Pedders on their shop Camaro, it's a really awesome kit. But, it's made for amazing performance on a road course, most people don't realize a drag setup is totally different than a road course setup. My understanding of drag racing is the front end-links do you more harm on the drag strip, should just disconnect them, most have no idea on that. The end-links make the suspension and steering amazingly tight and very responsive, that's great on a road course but probably no benefit if going in a straight line and most likely hinders the results because you want the front to rise up so the back pushes down to get that added grip to lunge the vehicle forward.

My understanding (I may not be 100% right here) is that for drag you need to focus on the rear of the car (bushings, tie rods) and strength of the parts (DS, axles, tranny, diff., gears based on the power level you have), but for hotlaps you need to focus on the overall suspension and brake handling which includes the bushing, springs, tie rods, end-links, sways, disks, calipers, pads and you want it all to be adjustable so you can compensate for various tracks. As for drag tracks one may be a little stickier or rougher, but really you're just going in a straight line so you want a good alignment and you want the back to squat (eliminate spin, and wheel hop) into the track (so probably softer springs too).

[SixGracing]

Originally Posted by calbert1999

PM me; We were discussing this today at my shop as we attempted this mod as well, you'll be interested in the analysis we did and comparison of charts.



The roots guys can't get their heads wrapped around this concept. Our centris never touch the engine so the heat doesn't transfer, and the air it sucks in is cooled before going into the engine. With lower compression as well (on a stroked / forged engine) we never have issues with IAT or knocking, no meth required.


You're right on the money man, I can tell you really do your research and ask alot of questions, I do the same so kudos to you.

Anyone, who would tell me at this poing anything about using ZL1 parts on my SS, I'm out the door, and further if they start tellimg me about replacing my pump and getting a BAP, I'd ask them for a refund on anything they've done on my vehicle and put it back the way it was.
ZL1 parts are just that, ZL1 parts. Anyone who plans on doing any work on their SS's or ZL1's to 600rwhp. will have to rip out their pump, injectors, and perhaps even the rails to get a proper fuel system in there for any real power. The ZL1 pump is great for a ZL1 because the ZL1 makes a mere 550 or something HP, so that pump is fine.

If anyone says you need a ZL1 pump and a BAP on your D-1SC setup with 65# injector you better run, and run fast, real fast dude. Why do I say this? Because, you might as well use the extra $400 (BAP budget), for a serious Livernois, ADM or Aeromotive pump.

As for suspension you're right on the money. SPI has Full Pedders on their shop Camaro, it's a really awesome kit. But, it's made for amazing performance on a road course, most people don't realize a drag setup is totally different than a road course setup. My understanding of drag racing is the front end-links do you more harm on the drag strip, should just disconnect them, most have no idea on that. The end-links make the suspension and steering amazingly tight and very responsive, that's great on a road course but probably no benefit if going in a straight line and most likely hinders the results because you want the front to rise up so the back pushes down to get that added grip to lunge the vehicle forward.

My understanding (I may not be 100% right here) is that for drag you need to focus on the rear of the car (bushings, tie rods) and strength of the parts (DS, axles, tranny, diff., gears based on the power level you have), but for hotlaps you need to focus on the overall suspension and brake handling which includes the bushing, springs, tie rods, end-links, sways, disks, calipers, pads and you want it all to be adjustable so you can compensate for various tracks. As for drag tracks one may be a little stickier or rougher, but really you're just going in a straight line so you want a good alignment and you want the back to squat (eliminate spin, and wheel hop) into the track (so probably softer springs too).

Luckily for me I am in research/learn mode too and haven't commited to anyone yet on how my engine will be built. I can tell you though that the guy I was referred to, to do my engine work came highly recommended by several other Chevy guys and also directly from the techs at ATI. They have the upmost confidence in him to install their products and he has a great reputation as an incredible tuner too.

To clarify, He did not say he would use a BAP with 65# injectors with a ZL-1 pump. What he quoted me was Fast 85# injectors, using the ZL-1 pump, no BAP and said up to 600RWHP has had zero issues with fuel at this power level. He said the pump works efficiently beyond what it is rated for. He has done a couple builds with this configuration and said the cars tune like a dream and the 600hp mark is achievable. I understand there are other pumps out there rated much higher. But saying a ZL-1 pump is just that, for a ZL-1 doesn't make much sense to me because you can apply various brands and parts to builds. Chevy obviously thought the LSA from the CTS-V was a great motor for the Camaro and didn't say an LSA motor is just that, for a CTS-V. The guy who is helping me works at a Chevy dealership and I haven't heard a single bad thing about what he does. Will I have a laundry list of questions for him before he lays a hand on my SS? Yes of course and he will have to answer them confidently, accurately, and be able to give me that warm fuzzy before I proceed with anything.

So, before we all get too hasty with opinions let me do some more homework on this configuration before we lay down the judgement. It might turn out to be a great configuration and it might not. But if there is any indication of the latter, it will never happen on my car. I've already got $44K in my car and I'm not about to let someone detonate it.

I appreciate all of the helpful advice and love how Camaro guys are passionate about their rides and so incredibly helpful in these forums. Sorry Padre for skewing off on a different topic on your thread. You have done some great things with your car and hopefully we can all follow. More to come soon..

[Padre]

Originally Posted by SixGracing

Sorry Padre for skewing off on a different topic on your thread. You have done some great things with your car and hopefully we can all follow. More to come soon..

Don't apologize for knowledge. That's the purpose of this thread. I'd love to hear how your build continues.

Padre

[calbert1999]

Originally Posted by SixGracing

Luckily for me I am in research/learn mode too and haven't commited to anyone yet on how my engine will be built. I can tell you though that the guy I was referred to, to do my engine work came highly recommended by several other Chevy guys and also directly from the techs at ATI. They have the upmost confidence in him to install their products and he has a great reputation as an incredible tuner too.

To clarify, He did not say he would use a BAP with 65# injectors with a ZL-1 pump. What he quoted me was Fast 85# injectors, using the ZL-1 pump, no BAP and said up to 600RWHP has had zero issues with fuel at this power level. He said the pump works efficiently beyond what it is rated for. He has done a couple builds with this configuration and said the cars tune like a dream and the 600hp mark is achievable. I understand there are other pumps out there rated much higher. But saying a ZL-1 pump is just that, for a ZL-1 doesn't make much sense to me because you can apply various brands and parts to builds. Chevy obviously thought the LSA from the CTS-V was a great motor for the Camaro and didn't say an LSA motor is just that, for a CTS-V. The guy who is helping me works at a Chevy dealership and I haven't heard a single bad thing about what he does. Will I have a laundry list of questions for him before he lays a hand on my SS? Yes of course and he will have to answer them confidently, accurately, and be able to give me that warm fuzzy before I proceed with anything.

So, before we all get too hasty with opinions let me do some more homework on this configuration before we lay down the judgement. It might turn out to be a great configuration and it might not. But if there is any indication of the latter, it will never happen on my car. I've already got $44K in my car and I'm not about to let someone detonate it.

I appreciate all of the helpful advice and love how Camaro guys are passionate about their rides and so incredibly helpful in these forums. Sorry Padre for skewing off on a different topic on your thread. You have done some great things with your car and hopefully we can all follow. More to come soon..

Not judging anyone; Just to help, I'm sharing knowledge and research I've done as well. If you look up you'll see Padre and I have almost same setups, except my engine is now a 427ci. LS7. So, I'm not just blowing smoke up your #%@, just to come off as a know it all.

The reason I say "ZL1 pump is for the ZL1" is I believe you may be at full capacity on your build not necessarily that you can't use it in any other vehicle, 600rwhp. is already past the LSA's 580hp. (at the crank).

I also, believe that's the reason why Padre asked whether or not you planned to use a BAP as well, rather than going with another brand of pump that's tried and true. I back up that question as I find it suspect that everyone else is using other aftermarket (proven brands on their SS), yet suddenly the ZL1 pump is the brand of choice for a GM tech. However, I'm ignorant to his skill, so perhaps he knows something I don't and I've got it wrong. Beleive me, I'm the first to say I'm wrong, I've been wrong before that's for sure.

In my opinion; If you can spend those same $ on a better pump (and no BAP for insurance) that will exceed the limits of the ZL1 pump for possible future growth, you'll be that much better off. Right?

Just my opinion, but good question for you to ask your performance installer for sure why ZL1 pump and not any of the other more than capable offerings on the market?

Looking forward to seeing you join the SC brotherhood with a kick-butt ProCharger.

UPDATE: Actually, I just realized why the ZL1 is the pump of choice, I get it now.

UPDATE #2: Found a thread on ZL1 pump I was reading months ago. Hope it helps. http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182378

[SixGracing]

Originally Posted by calbert1999

Not judging anyone; Just to help, I'm sharing knowledge and research I've done as well. If you look up you'll see Padre and I have almost same setups, except my engine is now a 427ci. LS7. So, I'm not just blowing smoke up your #%@, just to come off as a know it all.

The reason I say "ZL1 pump is for the ZL1" is I believe you may be at full capacity on your build not necessarily that you can't use it in any other vehicle, 600rwhp. is already past the LSA's 580hp. (at the crank).

I also, believe that's the reason why Padre asked whether or not you planned to use a BAP as well, rather than going with another brand of pump that's tried and true. I back up that question as I find it suspect that everyone else is using other aftermarket (proven brands on their SS), yet suddenly the ZL1 pump is the brand of choice for a GM tech. However, I'm ignorant to his skill, so perhaps he knows something I don't and I've got it wrong. Beleive me, I'm the first to say I'm wrong, I've been wrong before that's for sure.

In my opinion; If you can spend those same $ on a better pump (and no BAP for insurance) that will exceed the limits of the ZL1 pump for possible future growth, you'll be that much better off. Right?

Just my opinion, but good question for you to ask your performance installer for sure why ZL1 pump and not any of the other more than capable offerings on the market?

Looking forward to seeing you join the SC brotherhood with a kick-butt ProCharger.

UPDATE: Actually, I just realized why the ZL1 is the pump of choice, I get it now.

UPDATE #2: Found a thread on ZL1 pump I was reading months ago. Hope it helps. http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182378

Thanks again for the info. It's funny you mentioned that thread because after the discussion yesterday I sat at work ( I work nights) researching this ZL-1 debate. I came across that same thread and read it all. I also found some other articles that stated the ZL-1 pump has been used effectively in 650+ RWHP applications. BUT, and that's a big butt I have yet to read where anyone has personally installed it, dyno'd it and posted results. So I too am leary of this pump since it's rating from GM doesn't support what my engine build is going after in numbers. I too hope that this GM tech can enlighten me and explain how this works and hopefully has some past builds with numbers to back it up.

I also asked him if I could video the build and the dyno and he said they are currently in process of doing this and posting it to their website. I don't know where it will be but hopefully at some point there will be video of my car. The dealership is Fairway Chevrolet in Las Vegas. The tech/tuner is a guy by the name of Samuel Smith. So if anyone else has any knowledge of him please chime in. So far though I have heard all good. The procharger guys at ATI ranted about him.

I'm looking forward to being a SC member and cannot wait to start playing with a 600+ HP Camaro. I love the term Violent as described in Padre's posts.

When it comes down to it, I'm certain I will err on the side of caution and if I feel like this pump insn't adequate, I'll have him step it up to one of the recommended pumps from this thread.

Peace.

[calbert1999]

Well after thinking about it I realized you were having the work done by a GM dealership so it became quite obviuos why they would recommend their own pump.
Glad you found the thread informative.

If there's anything I can help you with feel free to PM me.

[SixGracing]

Originally Posted by calbert1999

Well after thinking about it I realized you were having the work done by a GM dealership so it became quite obviuos why they would recommend their own pump.
Glad you found the thread informative.

If there's anything I can help you with feel free to PM me.

Will do. I'm sure I'll have more questions as I get through this build. Thanks for the heads up on all of this..