MOTORTREND Head 2 Head (more in-depth look from Inde) -ZL1 TAKES ON BOSS VIDEO :D

[ShnOmac]

Originally Posted by Black5thgen

It is puppy kicking. 140HP more is a huge difference. If the ZL1 was cheaper, had less race inspired technology and a worse suspension I could see the HP number not meaning as much. When you have a car that has the advantage all across the board you expect a win, not praise it. The weight us also a big snafu by GM. These 2 cars should not be tested with each other, is that so hard to understand?

So the weight is a big snafu by GM but the fact that it beat a much lighter competitor is not impressive? It would seem to me that if it was not impressive the weight would not be a snafu.....

[YourBlindingBias]

People on this forum claimed puppy kicking when they put the ss against gt500 because it has 124 less HP... but now it's not puppy kicking when the gt500's little brother has 136 less hp????

I don't see how that could ever make sense, unless of course you're so biased that only when your car does it, it's a win.

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by Black5thgen

It is puppy kicking. 140HP more is a huge difference.

Let me see if I understand you analogy. In your analogy the ZL1 is a human, and the Boss 302 LS is a puppy? Do I have that correct?

Originally Posted by Black5thgen

If the ZL1 was cheaper, had less race inspired technology and a worse suspension I could see the HP number not meaning as much.

I'm sorry, but I really don't follow your logic. How do cost, technology, and suspension relate to whether horsepower means more or less?

Originally Posted by Black5thgen

When you have a car that has the advantage all across the board you expect a win, not praise it.

Is the ZL1's weight part of its across the board advantages?

Originally Posted by Black5thgen

These 2 cars should not be tested with each other, is that so hard to understand?

Who is the arbiter who determined that the Boss 302 LS and the ZL1 should not be tested with each other?

[HumanWiki]

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

I'm sorry, but I really don't follow your logic. How do cost, technology, and suspension relate to whether horsepower means more or less?

Because HP and TQ are worthless boasting numbers w/o a method for applying them to the race surface.


If we were just comparing two engines sitting on a dyno, then I could see where tech/susp were irrelevant to the meaning of the HP.

[69NMYSS]

Originally Posted by ffrcobra_65

how conveniently we forget how much crying some of us did when the GT500 was making the SS its boitch. But now its all good because a 136hp advantage is a "fair" comparison. Two roadcourse cars but one has 136hp more, of course it is going to win.

The ZR1 and the Z06 ring times are only 2.5 seconds apart. Yet the ZR1 has over 130hp more than the Z06. Not sure how many times everyone needs to explain power is not everything. They even stated in the video (at 6:40) without the hp disparity, the Mustang would still be 2 seconds slower, and its 400 lbs lighter. Kudos to GM and the ZL1, it dominated the Boss LS in every way.

[IOMZL1]

Originally Posted by YourBlindingBias

People on this forum claimed puppy kicking when they put the ss against gt500 because it has 124 less HP... but now it's not puppy kicking when the gt500's little brother has 136 less hp????

I don't see how that could ever make sense, unless of course you're so biased that only when your car does it, it's a win.

This thread is getting confusing. Will the 650HP GT500 be considered puppy kicking when compared to the 580HP ZL1?

[radz28]

Originally Posted by Black5thgen

When did I say that it was power only? I merely brought that up as a point along with the fact the ZL1 is in a higher league than the LS. The ZL1 loyalty has blinded you and a lot of other people here I guess. Again let me state this fact, not my opinion. The LS is a N/A, 5L V8 powered car with conventional shocks and a straight axle. The ZL1 is a supercharged, 6.2L powered car with magnetic shocks and a track inspired stability control. Not to mention the ZL1 is significantly more money. Should I be impressed at this outcome?? I'm not because that's what I would expect. How do you think a base SS would do against a LS? Different league of car. Chevy doesn't not have a car to compete with the Boss at this time. Show me how the ZL1 does against a 2012 GT500. That's a legitimate comparison.

"... puppy kicking..." You dismiss everything else, but continue (even now) to point to be as the most relavent factor.

I do agree with comparing the GT500 though.

Originally Posted by ffrcobra_65

how conveniently we forget how much crying some of us did when the GT500 was making the SS its boitch. But now its all good because a 136hp advantage is a "fair" comparison. Two roadcourse cars but one has 136hp more, of course it is going to win.

I see your point - I really do. However - I ask you to reconsider exactly how much of a difference that power gave ZL1. Remember - that LS weighs almost several hundred pounds more than ZL1. LS, to my understanding, seems almost a little under-rated, too. But, to the SS vs GT500 comparison - it's a little different because there was nothing to go head-to-head from GM. That wasn't the target car, to my understanding. That's not the case now. Also - I can't dismiss that it was the magazine's option to compare the LS to ZL1; GM didn't do that. I think circumstances are just different now - at least for me, personally. Now - if I were to suggest that ZR1 should go toe-to-toe with the '13 GT500 - that's rediculous - and I'd be the first to point that out. I don't think anyone should consider that fair, although, Ford saying the target for the 500 was GT makes me wonder, lol.

Originally Posted by f ê r

^ THIS.

AND like I said before, historically, the ZL1 moniker belongs to the Drag Strip Camaro (am I wrong?). Why GM would put a badge on car it isnt meant to be driven at a Drag Strip?? That it can handle too? Thats a PLUS.

Why GM decided to name this new Camaro as a ZL1 and not a Z28? For me thats the Touring version of the Camaro, the Z28. Natural aspirated, will heat soak much less and is somewhat a lightweight car.

Im really asking cause I really dont know about the badge changes.

I honestly think ZL1 was going to be Z28. I don't know, and don't have any facts to support that idea, but the Boss was a wrench that changed the name - IMO. I agree with your understanding, except about Z28 being a touring-type car. That's certainly not the case at the beginning, but maybe toward the end, it's arguable. For a track car, GM left us 1LE package for Z28, so I think that thought is correct to a degree.

ZL-1 represented the height of technology at that time. There weren't many aluminum-blocked engines out there running around, and it came from Can-Am racing, so it was thought to be exotic. ZL-1 was a strip car - exactly like you said. It was a specific tool to do one job - fight the HEMI-cars and big-block-cars from Dearborn. ZL1 is a multi-purpose car, now, IMO, and while the meanings have changed a bit, ZL1 is still exotic, as far as GM goes. ZR1 nor CTS-V enjoy EPS OR MRC III! That's pretty cool. MRC is also used on Ferraris!

Originally Posted by ShnOmac

Well that's the way you started the conversation.....

Originally Posted by Black5thgen

It is puppy kicking. 140HP more is a huge difference. If the ZL1 was cheaper, had less race inspired technology and a worse suspension I could see the HP number not meaning as much. When you have a car that has the advantage all across the board you expect a win, not praise it. The weight us also a big snafu by GM. These 2 cars should not be tested with each other, is that so hard to understand?

Competition tires, a splitter you can't use legally on the street, and a track key that's not legal for use on the street in CA are also differences. You don't seem to understand what the data was from this test.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by IOMZL1

This thread is getting confusing. Will the 650HP GT500 be considered puppy kicking when compared to the 580HP ZL1?

NO!!! That's a silly question!!! Actually - maybe it's 670, according to some sources... That goes without saying, I'm sure

You know what - I consider it a fair fight. I may not like the outcome, but I think it's fair. Unless Ford says it's aiming for ZR1 or something (or even Z06), I consider it a direct competitor to ZL1. If ZL1 loses - it is what it is. I won't like it, and will be vocal about it and how GM should address it, but this is a fair fight, to me.

[Black5thgen]

Originally Posted by ShnOmac

So the weight is a big snafu by GM but the fact that it beat a much lighter competitor is not impressive? It would seem to me that if it was not impressive the weight would not be a snafu.....

Weight is the 5th gens biggest downfall. It effects everything in the car. Beating a much lighter competitor with almost every advantage is not impressive. I'm saying the same thing over and over and nobody seems to get it because they're so impressed that the ZL1 beat the mustang. That's the text book definition of a fan boy. Make the cars equally in one category and see how much weight plays factor. Take your pick: HP, price, suspension.

[IOMZL1]

Originally Posted by radz28

NO!!! That's a silly question!!! Actually - maybe it's 670, according to some sources... That goes without saying, I'm sure

You know what - I consider it a fair fight. I may not like the outcome, but I think it's fair. Unless Ford says it's aiming for ZR1 or something (or even Z06), I consider it a direct competitor to ZL1. If ZL1 loses - it is what it is. I won't like it, and will be vocal about it and how GM should address it, but this is a fair fight, to me.

I agree. The stage has been set for an incredible battle.

[ShnOmac]

Originally Posted by radz28

You know what - I consider it a fair fight. I may not like the outcome, but I think it's fair. Unless Ford says it's aiming for ZR1 or something (or even Z06), I consider it a direct competitor to ZL1. If ZL1 loses - it is what it is. I won't like it, and will be vocal about it and how GM should address it, but this is a fair fight, to me.

Now wouldn't it be great if the ZL1 pulls out the win..... I think it's possible.

[JusticePete]

Since there is nothing new in yet another rehash of the same worn out old my GT500 will leap tall buildings in s single bound and is better than sliced bread I'll just rehash my most recent thoughts on the subject.

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Car & Driver

Steven Cole Smith
Bilstein Damptronic...Firm and Very Firm... it felt like the tires were attached to your spine
Understeered like the world's fastest front wheel-drive car
Stability control... momentary one wheel braking
On dips, you do feel the extra weight
It is the proving grounds policy to run winter tires

Michael Austin
With the ZL1, General Motors has made the Camaro into a true GT car -- daily driver, long range missile and track day special all in one.


Hmmm...
200 MPH with tires attached to you spine
180 MPH true GT car, long range missile and track day special

Sounds familiar...

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Can you say, dumb, dumber and dumbest, because those are the guys Ford had running the Car & Driver GT500 event. When we at Pedders setup an event, we set it up to show our best possible performance. Why would Ford arrange a vehicle review at a track where they knew in advance would handicap the car with winter tires? That was partner Dumb. Partner Dumber made the earlier decision to use Firm and Very Firm dampers. Dumbest came up with traction and stability control a decade behind the ZL1 system. Together they turned what should have been a Ford lovefest into a disappointing article.

All good sales and marketing programs use product strengths to position the product in the market place as a class leader. For the GT500 that appears to be raw horsepower and blistering fast 1/4 mile times. So why would we be at a road course on the winter tires They should have been on a drag strip with the best Goodyears money can buy banging the drum so loud it would be impossible to even think about a ZL1.

Ford seized the high ground with a 650 HP motor announcement when the ZL1 TEAM was announcing final specs. They gave it all back with a poorly constructed event, Chevy brought a GT and demonstrated a world class GT automobile the ZL1. Ford brought a 650 HP monster and demonstrated a 650HP winter tire handicapped limp noodle.

Were I running Ford, there would be three people with a lot of explaining to do. They took the best car Ford makes and turned it into an also ran.

Nothing is out of context. Not a single word. They are quotable phrases and do not reflect well on the GT500, deserved or not, from a C&D article. They stick out like a sore thumb. Hell they make you wince like you just hammered your own thumb if you are from Ford or a Ford enthusiast. The article was an EPIC FAIL for Ford and the 2013 GT500 marketing department. It has everything to do with Ford's presentation of the vehicle to Car and Driver.

"Surprisingly, though, Martindale says that, properly heated by a good burnout, the stock Goodyears nearly match the slicks’ launch traction."



Trust me the the stock Goodyears nearly match the slicks
Trust me the stock tires corner much better
Trust me the steering feels great
If we had the stock Goodyears we would be pulling 1.6 G turns
I'ld be happy to race and would beat you by 87 car lengths but I have a bowl of goldfish on the front seat so I can't

You betcha I'll be surprised when a street tire launches at the strip like a


The ZL1 review reads like GM wrote it for a ZL1 brochure. I guarantee you the 2013 GT500 article does not read the way Ford would have written it for anything. Why would Ford take them over the rough road test to demonstrate that when the dampers are set to hard it rattles your bones Those are exactly the type of bullet points that you don't EVER want to see in print.

Now were I to draw conclusions from the article they would be:

• Damptronic is dated technology. Set to hard I knew it would be hard. If you didn't know it would be hard you should have.
• Ford's single wheel brake S/TC is dated technology compared to offerings from a number of different MFGs.
• The engine is AWESOME, but the article didn't really reinforce it.
• I read nothing in the C&D article that increased the perceived value of the GT500. In fact reading the Camaro review and the GT500 back to back made it worse than a stand alone article.
• Ford brought C&D to a test track to ride along on SNOW TIRES

So I ask the 2013 GT500 enthusiasts -- You read the Car and Driver article and really thought DAMN! What a fantastic presentation of the soon to be best ever Mustang?

Originally Posted by JusticePete

In an environment that Ford controlled right down to the drivers, there is absolutely no excuse for the 'passenger' to come away with a list of quotable phrases that make the GT500 look bad. Hey I have a great last minute idea. We should put a C&D writer in the passenger seat and drive over the rough road test section to show him how brutal the ride is with the Damptronics set to HARD

The new ZL1 is supposed to be a great handling car and we should show the world that Ford has a better idea. Let's grab a C&D writer and take him out on a road course in the 2013 GT500 with SNOW TIRES to show him how great it handles!

Where is The Donald when Ford needs him?

Originally Posted by JusticePete

This post is not addressed to anyone individual. It is addressed to those that will protest the loudest and with the greatest frequency. It is blunt. There will be collateral damage.

Bilstein Damptronic...Firm and Very Firm... it felt like the tires were attached to your spine TRUE or FALSE

Understeered like the world's fastest front wheel-drive car TRUE or FALSE

Stability control... momentary one wheel braking TRUE or FALSE

On dips, you do feel the extra weight TRUE or FALSE

It is the proving grounds policy to run winter tires TRUE or FALSE


Did we know before the article that that the Damptronics set to HARD would ride HARD? YES

Does the 2005 on Mustang deliver from the factory with an understeer bias, with the exception of the BOSS LS? YES

Did we know before the article ran that the new 2013 Mustang would use dated technology like the one wheel brake T/SC system? YES

Did we know that the new 2013 would be heavier and it would show on track? YES

Did we know the first ride along in the new 2013 would be on winter tires? No, I guess that means I am not perfect.

Hmmm...
200 MPH with tires attached to your spine -- No way I am running at 200 MPH set to city or soft mode so this would appear to be dead nuts on accurate.

180 MPH true GT car, long range missile and track day special. Did we know the ZL1 would be this good? Yep, I knew because we built one this good two years ago and I drove it 20K on track and cross country.

Sounds familiar... It sure does sound like the results we all expected and mirrors too many other threads. Go ahead and love your 2012 GT500. I think it can be a great car. I simply don't want to hear the chest thumping here on Camaro5 and in the ZL1 section in particular. It is why I take particular delight in posting the wonderful negatives from the C&D article Are Camaro owners ROTFLing along with me -- you betcha They are just as tired of this worn out my GT500 is better than a ZL1 as I am, but they are too polite to post it here. On the other hand the phone calls, PMs and emails are hysterical

There is not any thing in the 2013 article that can compare to this sentence written by Michael Austin.

With the ZL1, General Motors has made the Camaro into a true GT car -- daily driver, long range missile and track day special all in one.

This is


Camaros win. Period. End of Story.

If there were a Mustang forum as good as the Camaro5 forum and I was a regular there I would say the same thing about a Camaro ZL1 lover posting in the 2013 GT500 section. Take your bluster and BS back to your own forum.

This is Camaro5. Show some or go home to your Mustang forum.

Here's your hat. Don't let the spinning door hit you on your way out.

[YourBlindingBias]

Originally Posted by IOMZL1

This thread is getting confusing. Will the 650HP GT500 be considered puppy kicking when compared to the 580HP ZL1?

No because they are the top two models.
the boss is the gt500's little brother.

the zl1 is the top dog camaro, vs the top dog mustang which is the gt500.
It would be very fair between the two top dogs, not top dog vs little brother.

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by HumanWiki

Because HP and TQ are worthless boasting numbers w/o a method for applying them to the race surface.


If we were just comparing two engines sitting on a dyno, then I could see where tech/susp were irrelevant to the meaning of the HP.

Yes, there are many factors that come into play with regard to a car's performance, but Black5thgen was, and my response was, in the context of the comparing the Boss 302 LS, which certainly has race inspired technology, and the ZL1, and their horsepower at the crank, although both vehicles do a reasonably good job of applying HP and TQ to the road surface. He did not reference the effectiveness of putting horsepower to the road surface, as his original post only referenced the difference in crank HP between the Boss and ZL1.