Inside Line: 2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 vs. 2013 Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 Comparison

[rez333]

Originally Posted by davidcroft

Why is this so hard to understand and why do I have to keep hearing about quarter mile times? so high school.....go to a dragstrip on a Fri or Sat night...bunch of rednecks and high schoolers running their turds for $20

You have no idea how arrogant you sound do you? What are you saying, that you're too good to go to a Fri night drag event? I'm thinking of two words that describe you, but I already used my quota for using those words and got a warning.

[HumanWiki]

Originally Posted by davidcroft

Why is this so hard to understand and why do I have to keep hearing about quarter mile times? so high school.....go to a dragstrip on a Fri or Sat night...bunch of rednecks and high schoolers running their turds for $20

Before I moved up here, I used to run at HRP... I've seen plenty of cars there worth six-fig and more..

Here I'm running my near $60,000.00 SS at the 1/4 mi and I'm certainly not the most expensive vehicle...

[IOMZL1]

Originally Posted by Mr. Unassailable

They are MUSCLE CARS!

A muscle car is not a road course car.

My SS is a muscle car. I expect exactly that.

For anyone that thinks the term muscle car has changed feel free to google it up. I doubted my own definition of "muscle car" after reading so of these replies. So I googled it.

----- wiki
Muscle car is a term used to refer to a variety of high-performance automobiles.[1] The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines muscle cars as "any of a group of American-made 2-door sports coupes with powerful engines designed for high-performance driving."[2] A large V8 engine is fitted in a 2-door, rear wheel drive, family-style mid-size or full-size car designed for four or more passengers. Sold at an affordable price, muscle cars are intended for mainly street use and occasional drag racing.[3][4][5][6] They are distinct from two-seat sports cars and expensive 2+2 GTs intended for high-speed touring and road racing. Developed simultaneously in their own markets, muscle cars also emerged from manufacturers in Australia, South Africa, the United Kingdom, and elsewhere.


--------- dictionary.reference.com
muscle car
noun
1. a flashy sports car with a large, powerful engine; a hot rod.


-----------

So unless you think the ZL1 is no longer a muscle car and has moved on to competing with "sports cars" ("Indy cars" in my words) then your arguments of "it's not all about power" "it's not all about 1/4 mile" are garbage.



In short, if you feel the ZL1 is superior to the Shelby GT500 then you also feel the Camaro is no longer a muscle car.


Sent from my iPhone

The SS just doesn't handle that well compared to other sports cars today, but it handles leaps and bounds ahead of the muscle cars of the 60s and 70s.

People expect cars to do it all in 2012. Vehicles will be compared by every metric possible to their direct and indirect competitors. Magazines and most car enthusiasts don't stop at the 0-60 and 1/4 mile. It is no longer good enough to just do skidpad and slalom. Track testing where balance, understeer, oversteer, brake fade, and handling are now one of the standards. Road testing is done to evaluate comfort for daily driving. And price is compared to determine 'value'.

Each enthusiast will wade through the reviews and make their own judgment. Some are diehard GM, Ford, etc. so will only purchase the offering that suits them from their respective manufacturer. Others consider and weigh all of the information at hand and make an educated decision. Each person will rate each metric with a higher or lower value and make a choice. Or some will only care about looks and forget the rest or perhaps just go with the car that 'feels right'.

I don't believe the ZL1 or GT500 can really be classified as muscle cars anymore. Neither are ‘just’ a V8 strapped into a car. Both focus on braking, handling, etc. Price has risen on these beasts and one reason is they are developing more than the engine and must in order to stay competitive.

The Shelby comes the closest to a muscle car when comparing these two because they offer the car without the performance package, however, the car will always be compared to the ZL1 fitted with those options (otherwise Ford fanbois will call foul). Ironically, many of the SVT guys like that they can get the car for less without these track options even if they wouldn’t likely want that base car to take on the ZL1 in most comparisons.

IMO the only modern muscle cars are ones people build themselves, I can't think of a car today that wouldn't fit into the 'GT' category vs. the 'Muscle Car' category as described above. No modern manufacturer is going to completely ignore handling characteristics on a vehicle in order to make it a faster accelerating vehicle.

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by Mr. Unassailable

They are MUSCLE CARS!

So unless you think the ZL1 is no longer a muscle car and has moved on to competing with "sports cars" ("Indy cars" in my words) then your arguments of "it's not all about power" "it's not all about 1/4 mile" are garbage.

In short, if you feel the ZL1 is superior to the Shelby GT500 then you also feel the Camaro is no longer a muscle car.

To me muscle cars were American mid-size family cars equipped with large displacement engines. I consider the 1964 GT0 as the original muscle car. Other muscle car include the Chevelle SS396, the 4-4-2, the GS400, the Fury, and the Fairlane, which performed well in a straight line but were quite lacking in handling capabilities.

I consider the original Camaro and Mustang to be Pony Cars, compact cars that were stylish and sporty, which evolved from the original Thunderbird, Corvair, and Falcon, and not muscle cars.

I consider the new ZL1 a modern high performance GT vehicle, and not a muscle car in the classic sense of the term. Today's high performance vehicles must perform well in all areas, straight line performance, handling and road course performance, and every day driving and touring comfort and performance.

[rez333]

Originally Posted by Skyman 08

Actually road courses reflect more of what the average owner will be faced with whenever he is out driving. Unless all he does is drive on a straight road from stoplight to stoplight.

spoken like someone who's never been on a road course.

I've been on both road courses and strips, and strips far better represent real-life North American roads than road courses. There's no way in heck you're going to be tearing down straightaways at 160mph and then slowing down to 60mph in an instant then taking the ideal line around the corner on the street - where have you EVER seen anyone drive like that on the street? You'd either be rear-ended or you'd side-swipe someone.

But as we all know, ZL1s will be matched against GT500s on the streets at the lights, and guess what that's similar to?

[htron50]

Originally Posted by IOMZL1

The SS just doesn't handle that well compared to other sports cars today, but it handles leaps and bounds ahead of the muscle cars of the 60s and 70s.

People expect cars to do it all in 2012. Vehicles will be compared by every metric possible to their direct and indirect competitors. Magazines and most car enthusiasts don't stop at the 0-60 and 1/4 mile. It is no longer good enough to just do skidpad and slalom. Track testing where balance, understeer, oversteer, brake fade, and handling are now one of the standards. Road testing is done to evaluate comfort for daily driving. And price is compared to determine 'value'.

Each enthusiast will wade through the reviews and make their own judgment. Some are diehard GM, Ford, etc. so will only purchase the offering that suits them from their respective manufacturer. Others consider and weigh all of the information at hand and make an educated decision. Each person will rate each metric with a higher or lower value and make a choice. Or some will only care about looks and forget the rest or perhaps just go with the car that 'feels right'.

I don't believe the ZL1 or GT500 can really be classified as muscle cars anymore. Neither are ‘just’ a V8 strapped into a car. Both focus on braking, handling, etc. Price has risen on these beasts and one reason is they are developing more than the engine and must in order to stay competitive.

The Shelby comes the closest to a muscle car when comparing these two because they offer the car without the performance package, however, the car will always be compared to the ZL1 fitted with those options (otherwise Ford fanbois will call foul). Ironically, many of the SVT guys like that they can get the car for less without these track options even if they wouldn’t likely want that base car to take on the ZL1 in most comparisons.

IMO the only modern muscle cars are ones people build themselves, I can't think of a car today that wouldn't fit into the 'GT' category vs. the 'Muscle Car' category as described above. No modern manufacturer is going to completely ignore handling characteristics on a vehicle in order to make it a faster accelerating vehicle.

Now that's a bunch of good stuff!

[rez333]

Originally Posted by HumanWiki

Before I moved up here, I used to run at HRP... I've seen plenty of cars there worth six-fig and more..

Here I'm running my near $60,000.00 SS at the 1/4 mi and I'm certainly not the most expensive vehicle...

Well according to David Croft, those six figure cars are driven by rednecks and high school kids.

[HumanWiki]

Originally Posted by rez333

Well according to David Croft, those six figure cars are driven by rednecks and high school kids.

I know some pretty quick Rednecks.. They can't speak for shit.. but, they'll own your ass all night.

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by rez333

I've been on both road courses and strips, and strips far better represent real-life North American roads than road courses.

Have your ever driven on Highway 1 between Carmel and Big Sir? If not, it's worth the trip.

[rez333]

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

I consider the new ZL1 a modern high performance GT vehicle, and not a muscle car in the classic sense of the term. Today's high performance vehicles must perform well in all areas, straight line performance, handling and road course performance, and every day driving and touring comfort and performance.

This is the truth. The Camaros and Mustangs are GT cars. They compare very well to the C63 AMG, M3 and S4 - all of which are GTs. The "pony car" doesn't apply any more. I think of "pony cars" as "secretary cars" - good looking inexpensive cars that a "secretary" can afford. Nowadays that doesn't apply (except for the V6 ) - the SS/Mustang GT/ZL1/GT500 are all Grand Tourers.

[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by Ultrakla$$ic

http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/n...amaro_zl1.html

I had not seen that artical, still it even says in it the ZL1 was designed to do it all well. It does not say it will be the best in the drags, just designed to improve upon the SS.
I still think stock for stock the type track will determine who wins on the road course. Long straights Shelby, short straights ZL1.

[oortcloud]

Does the GT in GT500 stand for gran turismo? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_tourer

If so, then the the gt500 is a "high-performance luxury automobile designed for long-distance driving".

[HumanWiki]

Originally Posted by oortcloud

Does the GT in GT500 stand for gran turismo? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_tourer

If so, then the the gt500 is a "high-performance luxury automobile designed for long-distance driving".

If that's the case, then so is GTO "Gran Turismo Omologato"

[rez333]

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

Have your ever driven on Highway 1 between Carmel and Big Sir?

No, but I guarantee no-one is pushing it on those roads. How can anyone do real track-like performance driving on any street? It's downright suicidal and dangerous to others - you'd need to use up at least 3 lanes to do it properly.

Some people are thinking that the fancy handling will count on the street - it simply won't. If you could push your car to the limits on a street enough feel the handling, you'd either be driving illegally or driving a car with average handling. I've never taken any on-ramp like I've taken a corner on a track - it's simply too dangerous and I'd have to cross lanes to do it.