MotorTrend Pits the ZL1 vs GT500 on the Street, Dragstrip, and Racetrack

[tt335ci03cobra]

Originally Posted by oortcloud

You've got some facts wrong. The gt500 did not win every metric. The zl1 won some very critical metrics. That's why they gave the overall win to the zl1. You're claiming a road race win, but motor trend declared a tie. So sorry you don't get your checkmate. And according to other mag reviewers it's the zl1 as the winner of the road race. According to some others its the gt500. At best you have a stalemate (or win-win if you own one of these cars).

Politely, I accounted for all of those claims you made man. Read a little closer. I'll go back through and explain.

I said "about every metric" which is just as you say, it didn't win every metric. Slalom went to the z, confidence and subjective stuff went to the z, but the real competition; the numbers, went to the ford and by a good margin. That's what was at question.

The checkmate stands because from the beginning the discussion I was involved in was about the performance of both cars, disregarding the subjective issues. Why? Because chess is played that way and the other member made a few chess references. Chess isn't how you played, it's whether you had the win. Cars subjective stuff is subjective. A win is a win. Lap times and performance are more weight worthy competition, always has been and probably always will be the case. Z06 vs porsche, viper vs ferrari, etc. Function trumps form most of the time.

Lets put it in another light. When/if sports games start being adjusted for by a form and function scenario, I think the industry will suffer. If a team wins by the skin of its teeth from a lucky touchdown, they probably won't win the next game and will be shutdoibuprofen in the playoffs if they lack the skill as a team to pull off decent wins. Happens often. But lets assume the nfl just starts saving time by simply giving the win or calling it a tie when a narrow last second win comes up. To the team with a lower score, this is great because they actually played better. That said, it isn't really a good idea in general, it'd be a pretty flimsy win or tie to win that way and it'd soften the game.

The reason my original chess/leguna argument is pretty hard to beat is 3 fold.

1. I stated it with proper terms like "about" and in specific ways.

2. I opened the discussion with something along the lines of: "on Leguna" because like most, I realize one track is not a win all, it's one track. One game is one game, unless it's the Super Bowl; nurburgring same day same driver same conditions, it's hard to really dean it an end all. (I hope someone starts doing those types of comparison tests as a YouTube channel and/or magazine/webcast; that'd be awesome)

3. Chess is not about style, or feel, it's about the win. And sorry but even with fading brakes, the gt500 ran 2 and maybe even 3 laps faster than the zl1 same day same driver. Neither car performs horribly, as people lay against the ford. I made my post because the guy with chess assertions said some pretty brash stuff that was untrue. Along the lines of "game over, checkmate back to the drawing board ford. blah blah blah fanboy crap."

I'm the last to slam either car but when the facts are not represented, somebody has to stop the crap. I'll take a little heat because I can handle it, if nobody steps up to keep the info straight, why even have a discussion?

My point was the gt500 might have pulled a flimsy win because it's brakes and handling were not on par with the zl1 but the clock didn't lie. A flimsier win USA subjective win when the clock, or score hadn't. Given more laps, maybe the zl1 would have experienced hear soak and started slowing at the same rate as the gt500's braking was slowing it. We just don't know. What we do know is that 1:38's on that track is very impressive. Closing in on R8v10's and better than some Gallardo's. 1:39.3's are also very fast, 1.2 seconds faster than a boss 302 Leguna; very very impressive. But it's not 1:38.6, 1:38.9, and 1:39.2's. Thats what we know. Subjective is how a driver feels, and mainly it was the brakes. That's a little maintenance.

3 laps averaged, and the gt500 was a good bit ahead of the zl1. Brake wise, a decent brake tune up with hawk pads and dot4 fluid will keep them alive long after 3 laps and honestly we all know track goers do this just as drag racers use royal purple and ngk tr6's. I won't even talk about tires but most track goers also get dedicated wheels and tires for their track cars.

Hell, there's even a pic on one of these threads from an owner of a gt500 that's already tracked it to a 2:29 with stock tires, a cat delete and ecu tune on a track where his buddies with slick tire z06's and zr1's were running 2:27's. He had nothing to say about brake fade. If an extra 80whp on this car with huge straights isn't overheating his brakes, it's probably the case that he did those simple changes or that the gt500 in this motortrend test just needed a bleed and new pads/fluids. Probably a lot of magazine driver and high stress testing miles on it.

Anyways, opinions go all ways and none of us are going to fully prove or disprove much of anything in this given venue. Cheers.

[papawattz]

Originally Posted by pdari

I hate to admit it but you just hit the nail square on the head. The defense seems to change at every test result. It is really quite amusing to read guys' arguments change from one test result to the next.

Mustang fanboy WOW, Out on the highway someone in a GT 500 is gonna get over confident, try and race a ZL1 and end up just sitting there spinning it's tires. So out in the real world(streets) the ZL1 still wins

[tt335ci03cobra]

Originally Posted by papawattz

Mustang fanboy WOW, Out on the highway someone in a GT 500 is gonna get over confident, try and race a ZL1 and end up just sitting there spinning it's tires. So out in the real world(streets) the ZL1 still wins

Ya go on YouTube and watch a 2013 gt500 go from 70-160 in 3rd and 4th in less time than zl1's get going 135.

[Stew]

Originally Posted by mikeyroche

Thats debatable. With Fords decision to go for max HP... they essentially put the GT500 in a higher class. So really the GT500 should be facing say a Z06 or ZR1. Ford tried to make a super car, well the ZL1 is not a super car. Its a supercharged muscle car you can take to the track. The Z06 is a track/racing supercar. And the ZR1 is Chevy's top dog. If your going to put the GT500 up for fair competition, well it won't be against the ZL1

Um, the GT500 is EXACT thing you described the ZL1 as

Its a supercharged muscle car you can take to the track

[AZ-ZL1]

Bottom line, you can't come up short 82 horses and win very many performance battles.

If I want to run with a Shelby, a few mods and I'm there, but I'm happy with what I have stock. There will always be a faster car.

I love the Shelby...but I love my ZL1 even more.

[tt335ci03cobra]

Look at motortrends data for acceleration on 0-150 for both cars and subtract the 0-60 time of each car. It was about 21 seconds vs 26 seconds. So taking 0-60 out, 17.5 seconds vs 22.2, that's 4.7 seconds. At 150mph, that's a huge distance

[htron50]

Originally Posted by pdari

I disagree with cutting corners. A Ford guy can also nit pick on the ZL1...can say GM cut corners by not using a forged internals and still using push-rod tech on the ZL1. It goes back and forth. Our beloved ZL1 was the one that was held back for weeks in QC (Quality Control) not the Shelby. So yeah, I totally disagree. We can nit pick each car all day.

It's not a "nit" when MY $$ is being spent. You are right --- a lot of the Ford engine investment is great! I like the engine a TON! No question about it. It's what it is all linked to that lets me know MY $$ was better spent! I almost wonder what a ZL1 would run like if it had the 5.8 installed!?? HA! I don't know if it's truly a better engine, but I would concur it looks to be. But, you can give a HOBO a heart transplant and it won't alter his personality.... and the new GT500 sure got a good transplant!

But it sure is fun watching both companies "bring it".... Love it!

[oortcloud]

Originally Posted by tt335ci03cobra

Politely, I accounted for all of those claims you made man. Read a little closer. I'll go back through and explain.

I said "about every metric" which is just as you say, it didn't win every metric. Slalom went to the z, confidence and subjective stuff went to the z, but the real competition; the numbers, went to the ford and by a good margin. That's what was at question.

The checkmate stands because from the beginning the discussion I was involved in was about the performance of both cars, disregarding the subjective issues. Why? Because chess is played that way and the other member made a few chess references. Chess isn't how you played, it's whether you had the win. Cars subjective stuff is subjective. A win is a win. Lap times and performance are more weight worthy competition, always has been and probably always will be the case. Z06 vs porsche, viper vs ferrari, etc. Function trumps form most of the time.

Man, that's way to much reading. You can spin my "claims" all you want, but that doesn't negate the facts presented by motor trend.

You can't claim checkmate if you didn't win! The gt500 did not win the road race. This is not subjective, this is empirical. Or do you consider significant brake fade to be subjective?

[tt335ci03cobra]

Originally Posted by AZ-ZL1

Bottom line, you can't come up short 82 horses and win very many performance battles.

If I want to run with a Shelby, a few mods and I'm there, but I'm happy with what I have stock. There will always be a faster car.

I love the Shelby...but I love my ZL1 even more.

Congrats on the z! Pulley and tune ftw! Just save the stock tune so you can reflash the ecu with it if anything happens motor wise in a few years so you can keep the warranty a non issue. Have fun man, enjoy it and cheers

[tt335ci03cobra]

Originally Posted by oortcloud

Man, that's way to much reading. You can spin my "claims" all you want, but that doesn't negate the facts presented by motor trend.

You can't claim checkmate if you didn't win! The gt500 did not win the road race. This is not subjective, this is empirical. Or do you consider significant brake fade to be subjective?

The discussion I was in was about the numbers, not motortrends subjective stuff bro. Read, it's good for ya if you wanna talk about stuff.

[KLR ZL1]

Originally Posted by rez333

Another thing, and this hasn't been mentioned as a key point even though it should: when the ZL1 was matched against the Boss, the ZL1 won because of the Boss' brake fade. The same is repeating itself with the GT500. The track performance of the Mustangs is severely limited by an insufficient brake package.

Ford needs to add brake cooling ducts as mandatory and it's ridiculous that they haven't. Kudos to GM for doing this.

People are focusing too much on the ZL1's suspension, or the GT500's power. The deciding factor is brakes folks!

Actually the ZL1 won because it can carry more speed through the turns. I believe it was Motortrend " The ZL1 tells the Boss to shove it " article. I gave it to my boss because he is a big Mustang fan.

[oortcloud]

Originally Posted by tt335ci03cobra

The discussion I was in was about the numbers, not motortrends subjective stuff bro. Read, it's good for ya if you wanna talk about stuff.

I'm not talking about subjective stuff. That's part of my point.

[Wizard1183]

Considering GM put this ZL-1 out for 2012 with 580HP then Ford releases their GT500 for 2013 AFTER seeing the HP rated ZL-1, Id hope they did make something to beat it. Had the GT500 come into the lime light before the ZL-1, I assure you the ZL-1 would have spanked its ass in ALL categories. For it to be a super comparison, both cars would have to be made the same yr without each other getting wind of what the other was doing. This is never the case so this is and always will be the result: A faster car vs the 1st to produce it. ZL-1 is the better car. Crank up the HP in the ZL-1 to 660 and this is not even a race. Youd have 2 cars rated at 660 with the ZL-1 blowing the doors off of the puny mustang.

[2001ragtop]

Everything is subjective to the owner.

Each car will SPECIFICALLY fit closer to someone's personality.

That's what the article should really say at the end.

It's exactly the same as how guys pick their wives.

One of these cars is extremely sophisticated and has lots of talents.

The other car only has ONE talent with less sophistication.