Continued: Lutz mentions engine options for Camaro -- 4 cylinder turbo a possibility - Page 4 - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums

*Mr. Wyndham* · 03-20-2008, 05:34 PM

Well...this is MUCH better by far. How's everyone feeling today? Rested and ready to talk repectfully? Wonderful.

Thank you everyone who's posted in here so far. THIS is the kind of discussion I like to read. Not mass-hysteria........

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan

I see your point but GM and Lutz acknowledged that the GTO was overpriced and said the same mistake would not be made with the Camaro.

I remember reading that! Kudos to you for bringing it up. I had forgotten...

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerScotsman

I'm sorry, but after the intro of the original Camaro concept coupe back in '06 with the LS2 that was projected to get 30mpg highway my expectations have been rather high for the production V8 version, and they still are. I sent a PM to fbodfather under my alias @ CamaroZ28.com posing a question to him along the lines of "if my current car gets 23mpg combined, would I be expecting too much if I wanted to get that same combined mpg rating for the new Camaro V8??" His reply was something along the lines of "you'll be pleasantly surprised" - His exact words are somewhere around here, I know I posted it in here - So I would like to hold on to hope but the news released yesterday doesn't sound too encouraging if the 3.6 DI V6 is said to get only 17/24 city/highway respectively.

The thing is. And you must understand, that when they came up with that guesstimate...there were three things wrong with it that inflated the mpg rating.

1) a year later, the EPA changed their rating procedure. So what was expected to get 30mpg, nor will be rated like 27-28 mpg.

2) I've no doubt that there was a wieght goal for the team. I've also no doubt that this goal was not met. (not by much...but it's like saying you're gonna get an A+ on a test, and instead you turn out an A-. Not bad at all...but not what you were hoping for). Because of this...that 30mpg may have been dependant on that goal. Now that it's different - so will the rating.

3) It was 99% likely a 'hopeful' estimate....

BUT - if Scott says you "won't be dissapointed"...he's rarely wrong on such things. The potential of GM's V8s are virtually limitless. And though the EPA may rate them 'low'....many customers seem to find the results much higher than they expected. (that applies to cars only, so far as I can tell).

I can't say I'm worried about gas mileage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2010_5thgen

a 4 cylinder will be the death of the camaro FOREVE with no return.

No...it won't. I don't understand what some of you can't understand about that.

Jose_The_Great_Cuervo · 03-20-2008, 05:35 PM

Hell, I don't even think adding a Supercharger instead of a Turbo will make it any better. And superchargers seem to be more appropriate for the car.

2010_5thgen · 03-20-2008, 05:40 PM

they need to just stay away from anything less than 6 cylinders. hell do an in line 6 for all i care but no 4ycylinders. that car will be the laughing stock of the muscle cars.

its just UN-AMERICAN.

*Mr. Wyndham* · 03-20-2008, 05:45 PM

Not True. Un-American was turning a blind eye to the Import Companies and believeing the Big 3 could survive forever with massive SUVs. Obviously we all know how that worked out. They didn't adapt. This car is ADAPTING. THAT is American to the core; being better than everyone else - and inso doing, setting a good example.

If this car is to survive and continue to offer those V8's we dream of, it's gonna have to sell. To sell in these times, means it's gonna have to adapt. I hardly think anyone's going to laugh at 260 hp coming up on you. Wether it's from a 4...or (hey wait!!) The 8's of yesteryear. hmmmmm 260hp makes you think. V8's used to do that...and it was considered Impressive!!!

Please don't get hung up on this "Un-American" bologna......it's really irritating.

rolnslo · 03-20-2008, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerScotsman

I'm sorry, but after the intro of the original Camaro concept coupe back in '06 with the LS2 that was projected to get 30mpg highway my expectations have been rather high for the production V8 version, and they still are. I sent a PM to fbodfather under my alias @ CamaroZ28.com posing a question to him along the lines of "if my current car gets 23mpg combined, would I be expecting too much if I wanted to get that same combined mpg rating for the new Camaro V8??" His reply was something along the lines of "you'll be pleasantly surprised" - His exact words are somewhere around here, I know I posted it in here - So I would like to hold on to hope but the news released yesterday doesn't sound too encouraging if the 3.6 DI V6 is said to get only 17/24 city/highway respectively.

In the CTS, the 3.6 DI V6 is rated at 17/26 with the automatic and 16/25 with the manual (autos.msn.com). However, unless I've missed something, the 3.6 DI in the CTS is not currently equipped with AFM/DOD, so I guess if the Camaro is getting it with AFM/DOD, then it is possible that those numbers could be closer to 19/29, if the weight is comparable or less. AFM is said to improve overall economy by approximately 12%. Push it to 30mpg on the freeway and you've got yourself 300hp that gets roughly the same mileage as a 4-cyl Malibu.

As for the V8? I also fail to understand how we could go backwards on fuel economy compared to the 4th gen V8. I've seen quite a few people post that they were getting numbers comparable to the EPA ratings of 18/28. For me, if the V8 5th gen is priced out of my range initially, I'll pick up a 4th gen Z28 or SS and drive it until I can pick up a used 5th gen in a few years.

munkee drummer · 03-20-2008, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMadHatter99

As far as the "premium" comment goes, remember Mr. Lutz did not say the Camaro would be "premium priced" but that it would have a price premium above the Mustang's. This is a VERY key difference and is, in fact, the difference between BMW pricing and a simple $500 boost over the stang's MSRP.

ummmm.....you better read it again....

"We are going to be premium-priced compared to the Mustang.”

*Mr. Wyndham* · 03-20-2008, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by munkee drummer

ummmm.....you better read it again....

"We are going to be premium-priced compared to the Mustang.”

He did.

*radz28* · 03-20-2008, 06:38 PM

Iron headed LT1s of not too long ago where "only" rated at 260 horse...

L98s were only around 240...

Four-banger mileage, when you can stay out of the turbo, doesn't sound too bad too me. I just wonder why GM doesn't stick with one power adder (i.e. supercharge everything or turbocharge everything.) SCs on 6.2s and turbos on I-4s - why?...

Scotsman · 03-20-2008, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

BUT - if Scott says you "won't be dissapointed"...he's rarely wrong on such things. The potential of GM's V8s are virtually limitless. And though the EPA may rate them 'low'....many customers seem to find the results much higher than they expected. (that applies to cars only, so far as I can tell).

I can't say I'm worried about gas mileage.

Here's my PM and Scott's reply...

Quote:

Originally Posted by *****
First, let me say that I'm very appreciative for your participation here, you're apart of the excitement that motivates us in being Camaro enthusiasts.

My question is this, and I'm NOT asking for any privileged info, more so insight:

My current car gets about 24.5 mpg combined, I don't think I'd be comfortable going below that in the future given how things are with gas prices right now. Would holding the new Camaro(std. V8 option) to that standard be unreasonable? I sure hope I wouldn't be asking a whole lot, but I have faith in GM.

Hi!

A very good question. As you probaby know, the U.S. Government has changed how we rate MPG -- but I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the fuel economy of all new Camaro powertrains -- we don't have final figures because we are still working on the engineering and validation of the Camaro -- but from what I do know -- we'll once again be a leader in terms of both performace -- fuel economy -- and tailpipe emissions -- just as the 4th gen car was!

SoFlaZ · 03-20-2008, 08:17 PM

If the turbo I-4 can actually move the car and enable it to drive without revving it over 5K in every gear to get boost out of that 2.0, I say go for it. But I dont see it getting any better gas mileage than a equal hp V6. Otherwise take out the 4cyl, sell it to a Cobalt owner and buy an LS whatever and have fun. Gm is just trying to keep up with modern times and technology to try to adapt as Dragon already said.

And I expect the V8 will get good mpg's so I hope I will be pleasantly surprised and hope the price for it wont be more than a G8

EllwynX · 03-20-2008, 08:32 PM

The 'premium' comment had me worried initially. But upon further thought, the Camaro will be a nicer package all around over the Mustang.

Also, all along it was stated the Camaro would be within a few hundred dollars of a comparable Mustang. I'm sure most of us assumed $500-$1000. So now it looks like it could possibly be $1500-$2000 more.

Is that really that big a deal?

Considering I had no problem whatsoever buying a 2002 Camaro with it's 'price premium' over the 2002 Mustang I suppose a 'premium' of a couple thousand more for a 2010 Camaro shouldn't bother me either...

(Though I really hope a very well equipped base V8 model doesn't go over $35,000. Otherwise I may not be getting one as soon as I'd like.)

WCFB-Russ · 03-20-2008, 08:48 PM

I know that in the past I've said things that ruffled peoples feathers. I know that I've had my feathers ruffled from people that have posted in the previous thread about how they "dont consider the v6 camaro a muscle car". (note: i own a 3.4L V6 Chevy Camaro 5 speed that makes as much power as a 305 v8)

But here's the deal - and this is why we lost the car for a few years - we fight too much. The Camaro name - whatever it means, should mean family most of all.

We are a family.

Reaching from 1967 through present times, the Camaro should draw each and every owner together in a bond of brotherhood (or sisterhood) and help us to stand as a family that has a profound love and admiration for a design that capitivates our hearts and imaginations to the possibilites that car ownership can bring. We think of our car as our baby - that is why we are on these boards; and no matter if your car has a v6, v8, I4 (iron duke) or in the future the twin turbo 4 cylinder or DOHC v6 - it wont matter - Because you will have a piece of the legacy that GM began in the late 60's that became an American icon.

It's not the engine that's the icon - its the overall design. And if you take the design away - if you remove the fenders and body panels, all you are left with is an engine on a set of tires.

The whole car itself is an experience, the look and feel as well as the options under the hood. THAT is why we love it. Some of us want to have a big motor or fast car and we all have our reasons, but belittling our brothers and sisters who own cars who aren't as fast or aren't as powerful (my fiance owns a camaro, and she is only interested in making it look good) makes everyone else - the people who are out to see the demise of the vehicle we hold so dear - win.

There is only two reasons that I need to buy a new Camaro - no matter the price and no matter the options. And they are:

1) The car will be almost identical to the concept.

and the most important one:

2) Because Scott Settlemire is a fan of the car. He loves the Camaro as much as I do and I know for a fact, in my heart, that he will never let me down and will do everything in his power to make sure that GM builds a car that will show America and the rest of the world that GM cares about its customers and cares about quality.

I have faith. I have had faith since the camaro died that GM would bring it back and the result would be the best I had ever seen. They have delivered on that faith without me ever asking them to.

Instead of getting so worked up on what could or could not be - perhaps we could just love the car for what it is - a Camaro.

Love it or hate it - its my 2 cents.

-Russ

*DGthe3* · 03-20-2008, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2010_5thgen

they need to just stay away from anything less than 6 cylinders. hell do an in line 6 for all i care but no 4ycylinders. that car will be the laughing stock of the muscle cars.

its just UN-AMERICAN.

They've had 4 bangers before in Camaros. Seems it hasn't left much of an impression on enthusiasts, we all still desperately want a new Camaro. Maybe there are some who think that the name was so soiled back then that they swore off the Camaro forever. But as a name, no damage has been done.

And as far as 1 potential engine (which none of us are likely to buy) making the car un-american: Please remember that a good portion of the engineering was done in Australia and the car will be assembled in Canada, potentially with engines made in Mexico. But none of that matter seems to matter with regard to the 'Americaness' of the Camaro, however the mention of a great little inline 4? Well now the Camaro is now unamerican.

To me, its should be an embarassment that for 1972 you could get a bigblock in the Camaro that made LESS power than this ecotec engine. In fact, this little I4 will have more power than any factory Camaro from 1972 - 1993.

I don't want this ecotec in my Camaro, but claiming that it will ruin the Camaro, that it will be un-American, and so on simply don't hold water. There will be a V8, there will be a V6, and there have been I4's in the past.

stovt001 · 03-20-2008, 10:38 PM

Alright. I got a good night's sleep, and had a nice long two hour commute (f#$*ing semis breaking down in the middle of the freeway during rush hour

) to turn this all over in my head, and I think I have a reasonable opinion on it.

First, the one thing that is letting me take this with a bit of optimism is knowing that Bob can be overly frank at times. Most of the time, he is refreshingly honest and cuts down on the sunshine and roses facade that most execs put up. However, it seems to me that sometimes he goes too far and gets a little more doom and gloomy than reality suggests. Maybe he's just trying to get everyone good and pissed at the people who forced CAFE upon us. Can't blame him for that.

Now if a 4 cylinder power plant allows us to keep our affordable V8s, then bring on the turbos! However, my concern is that they'll use the I4 in the place of the V6, and the V6 in the place of the base V8, leaving the only V8 in the GT 500 fighter. That just won't do for me. I know for a lot of us, the V8 isn't just about insane power. It means dependability, easy modification, beautiful sound, and just a good ole American institution. So as long as I can get my base V8 at a price not too far above the Mustang GT, I'll be happy.

The thing I gather from all this talk is that the I4 is on the table, but it is just a possibility. I'm sure even if they decide to use it, it won't be there at launch. It is just a contingency plan.

I'm not worried about the weight, like my first post on this thread may have indicated. I'm just throwing that question out for thought. It is a great point that weight transfer on acceleration may be different, but I don't expect the actual weight difference to be more than 100 pounds or so. I just think he opened up a potentially great discussion on the handling merits of a V6 arrangement rather than a V8.

Finally, price. I realized that the Camaro will be going up against the 370Z, Mustang, Challenger, Genesis Coupe, and possibly even some RWD coupes from Mazda, Honda, and Toyota. Given all that competition, if GM doesn't price it right the market certainly will. Am I willing to pay a bit more than the Mustang? Heck yes, I want my IRS and quality interior. But there is a very real limit to how high most of us can go. Good job Bob, without spending a single dime you just took a market survey of the Camaro market's price sensitivity. Take heed my friend.

03-20-2008, 05:40 PM	#45
2010_5thgen Drives: 2012 Porsche Panamera 4 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,274 View My Garage	they need to just stay away from anything less than 6 cylinders. hell do an in line 6 for all i care but no 4ycylinders. that car will be the laughing stock of the muscle cars. its just UN-AMERICAN. __________________ Brixton Forged CM10 Wheels IN STOCK!!! RF7 SOON!!!! Camaro/M3/M4 wheels in stock High Gloss Titanium

03-20-2008, 05:45 PM	#46
Mr. Wyndham I used to be Dragoneye... Drives: 2018 ZL1 1LE Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Buffalo, NY Posts: 31,873 View My Garage	Not True. Un-American was turning a blind eye to the Import Companies and believeing the Big 3 could survive forever with massive SUVs. Obviously we all know how that worked out. They didn't adapt. This car is ADAPTING. THAT is American to the core; being better than everyone else - and inso doing, setting a good example. If this car is to survive and continue to offer those V8's we dream of, it's gonna have to sell. To sell in these times, means it's gonna have to adapt. I hardly think anyone's going to laugh at 260 hp coming up on you. Wether it's from a 4...or (hey wait!!) The 8's of yesteryear. hmmmmm 260hp makes you think. V8's used to do that...and it was considered Impressive!!! Please don't get hung up on this "Un-American" bologna......it's really irritating. __________________ *"Keep the faith."* - Fbodfather

03-20-2008, 06:38 PM	#50
radz28 Petro-sexual Drives: Ultra-Grin Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Crazy Coast Posts: 15,795 View My Garage	Iron headed LT1s of not too long ago where "only" rated at 260 horse... L98s were only around 240... Four-banger mileage, when you can stay out of the turbo, doesn't sound too bad too me. I just wonder why GM doesn't stick with one power adder (i.e. supercharge everything or turbocharge everything.) SCs on 6.2s and turbos on I-4s - why?... __________________ '20 ZL1 Black "Fury" A10, PDR, Exposed CF Extractor Magnuson Magnum DI TVS2650R // RFBG // Soler 103 // TooHighPSI Port Injection // THPSI Billet Lid // FF // Katech Drop-In // PLM Heat Exchanger // ZLE Cradle bushings // BMR Chassis-Suspension Stuff // aFe Bars // Diode Dynamics LEDs // ACS Composites Guards // CF Dash // Aeroforce // tint // other stuffs

03-20-2008, 08:48 PM	#54
WCFB-Russ Drives: ????? Join Date: May 2007 Location: Wandering the Earth Posts: 264	I know that in the past I've said things that ruffled peoples feathers. I know that I've had my feathers ruffled from people that have posted in the previous thread about how they "dont consider the v6 camaro a muscle car". (note: i own a 3.4L V6 Chevy Camaro 5 speed that makes as much power as a 305 v8) But here's the deal - and this is why we lost the car for a few years - we fight too much. The Camaro name - whatever it means, should mean family most of all. We are a family. Reaching from 1967 through present times, the Camaro should draw each and every owner together in a bond of brotherhood (or sisterhood) and help us to stand as a family that has a profound love and admiration for a design that capitivates our hearts and imaginations to the possibilites that car ownership can bring. We think of our car as our baby - that is why we are on these boards; and no matter if your car has a v6, v8, I4 (iron duke) or in the future the twin turbo 4 cylinder or DOHC v6 - it wont matter - Because you will have a piece of the legacy that GM began in the late 60's that became an American icon. It's not the engine that's the icon - its the overall design. And if you take the design away - if you remove the fenders and body panels, all you are left with is an engine on a set of tires. The whole car itself is an experience, the look and feel as well as the options under the hood. THAT is why we love it. Some of us want to have a big motor or fast car and we all have our reasons, but belittling our brothers and sisters who own cars who aren't as fast or aren't as powerful (my fiance owns a camaro, and she is only interested in making it look good) makes everyone else - the people who are out to see the demise of the vehicle we hold so dear - win. There is only two reasons that I need to buy a new Camaro - no matter the price and no matter the options. And they are: 1) The car will be almost identical to the concept. and the most important one: 2) Because Scott Settlemire is a fan of the car. He loves the Camaro as much as I do and I know for a fact, in my heart, that he will never let me down and will do everything in his power to make sure that GM builds a car that will show America and the rest of the world that GM cares about its customers and cares about quality. I have faith. I have had faith since the camaro died that GM would bring it back and the result would be the best I had ever seen. They have delivered on that faith without me ever asking them to. Instead of getting so worked up on what could or could not be - perhaps we could just love the car for what it is - a Camaro. Love it or hate it - its my 2 cents. -Russ __________________

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03-20-2008, 05:35 PM	#44
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03-20-2008, 08:32 PM	#53
EllwynX Drives: 2010 Camaro SS Join Date: May 2006 Location: Southern NJ Posts: 2,259	The 'premium' comment had me worried initially. But upon further thought, the Camaro will be a nicer package all around over the Mustang. Also, all along it was stated the Camaro would be within a few hundred dollars of a comparable Mustang. I'm sure most of us assumed $500-$1000. So now it looks like it could possibly be $1500-$2000 more. Is that really that big a deal? Considering I had no problem whatsoever buying a 2002 Camaro with it's 'price premium' over the 2002 Mustang I suppose a 'premium' of a couple thousand more for a 2010 Camaro shouldn't bother me either... (Though I really hope a very well equipped base V8 model doesn't go over $35,000. Otherwise I may not be getting one as soon as I'd like.)

03-20-2008, 10:38 PM	#56
stovt001 Drives: 2006 Cobalt, 2004 Taurus wagon Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: California Posts: 3,810	Alright. I got a good night's sleep, and had a nice long two hour commute (f#$*ing semis breaking down in the middle of the freeway during rush hour ) to turn this all over in my head, and I think I have a reasonable opinion on it. First, the one thing that is letting me take this with a bit of optimism is knowing that Bob can be overly frank at times. Most of the time, he is refreshingly honest and cuts down on the sunshine and roses facade that most execs put up. However, it seems to me that sometimes he goes too far and gets a little more doom and gloomy than reality suggests. Maybe he's just trying to get everyone good and pissed at the people who forced CAFE upon us. Can't blame him for that. Now if a 4 cylinder power plant allows us to keep our affordable V8s, then bring on the turbos! However, my concern is that they'll use the I4 in the place of the V6, and the V6 in the place of the base V8, leaving the only V8 in the GT 500 fighter. That just won't do for me. I know for a lot of us, the V8 isn't just about insane power. It means dependability, easy modification, beautiful sound, and just a good ole American institution. So as long as I can get my base V8 at a price not too far above the Mustang GT, I'll be happy. The thing I gather from all this talk is that the I4 is on the table, but it is just a possibility. I'm sure even if they decide to use it, it won't be there at launch. It is just a contingency plan. I'm not worried about the weight, like my first post on this thread may have indicated. I'm just throwing that question out for thought. It is a great point that weight transfer on acceleration may be different, but I don't expect the actual weight difference to be more than 100 pounds or so. I just think he opened up a potentially great discussion on the handling merits of a V6 arrangement rather than a V8. Finally, price. I realized that the Camaro will be going up against the 370Z, Mustang, Challenger, Genesis Coupe, and possibly even some RWD coupes from Mazda, Honda, and Toyota. Given all that competition, if GM doesn't price it right the market certainly will. Am I willing to pay a bit more than the Mustang? Heck yes, I want my IRS and quality interior. But there is a very real limit to how high most of us can go. Good job Bob, without spending a single dime you just took a market survey of the Camaro market's price sensitivity. Take heed my friend.