BREAKING: Chevrolet Volt = 230 MPG City

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by Supermans

This thread should be merged with this thread.. http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...202#post785202 I broke the news of 230 MPG first lol.. Just saying..

Yes, but that thread deals primarily with the Camaro Convertible. I put this thread up solely about the Volt.

[GTAHVIT]

[thecamaroguy]

I liked the concept's "bold lines" better than then production.

Still a nice looking car! Not great, but nice.

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Yes, but that thread deals primarily with the Camaro Convertible. I put this thread up solely about the Volt.

Well then I will post my info here since I watched the whole broadcast....The whole braodcast was primarily about the Volt anyways, no mention of the Camaro Vert. However this forum did have that other thread linked at the homepage..In either case, all my posts had to do with the Volt..Here they are.. http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...t=36688&page=2 Few people will actually go to the other thread to read it and most of you did not watch the bradcast to begin with. I urge all of you to go back to the other thread and read it to get everything in context..Here are my posts since the other thread was closed and as far as I can tell not merged yet..I'm going to put in bold the important content I mentioned, just give me time as cutting and pasting is hard in this tiny box.

Originally Posted by Supermans

Fritz mentioned $7,500 dollars off the Volt as a Government incentive.. Fritz would not comment on whether or not there would be another GM incentive on top of that..Probably not since GM is owned by the Government and this would be viewed as double dipping. If the US government was smart, they would bring the price down for the Volt by $7,500 and advertise it as such and not allow their competitors to use the Government discount like Toyota.. A $32,500 MSRP price on the Volt is still a bit high for a compact car with a $10,000 or more cost to replace the battery compartment once it dies. Someone representing the African American community mentioned "How will anybody living in an urban setting or an apartment complex be able to charge the car when no outlet is available. Fritz pretty much said they are working on that problem..lol.. Obviously the Volt will be at first both a rich persons car or someone of upper middle class who has a garage and can afford a $32,000 - $40,000 car. I personally can afford $32,000 as that is what I paid for my Camaro SS, however if I had a choice, I'd still get the Camaro SS..

In other words the people who can't afford to buy gas and would benefit from this Volt technology for the most part can't charge it where they live and can't afford the initial cost... And unless gas prices skyrocket to $6.00 to $10.00 a gallon, I don't forsee a giant rush to buy the Volt after the initial "rich or upper middle class" buying frenzy or early adopters die down... Now, if GM can get the Volt technology into the base model non V8 Camaro and sell it for around the same price...I think that will sell like hotcakes and we enthusiasts can keep on buying the V8 since the fuel savings of the more efficient model be so high that the CAFE standards can't hurt the V8 powerplant...I know, I am dreaming, but lets hope the V8 survives all of this..

Originally Posted by Supermans

$40,000 is the number one of the people in audience threw out and initially Fritz did not combat that price. Instead he mentioned there will be a $7,500 off Government incentive..Then he backtracked later and mentioned they have not figured a price yet or didn't want to mention a price this early on however he did say the Gen 1 price would be high at first.. The fact that the Camaro was not mentioned is very very troubling.. it seems GM is placing their entire eggs in the basket for the Volt's launch and success while the Camaro as a gas guzzling car in comparison is not eco-friendly enough for the new administration's liking.. So they only mention the Volt and Equinox... No Camaro vert ..However we know its coming..

I did watch the whole thing by the way so just read my post above this one to get a better detail of what I observed..

Furthermore the two questions they pulled from the web was an afterthought.. ..

Originally Posted by Supermans

Bad economy or not, the Volt will be priced very high for what you get.. In my opinion, it is better to buy a $10,000 corolla which is about the same size and keep it for 10 years paying for gas than spending $upwards of $40,000 on a car that would take 20 years of daily driving (halflife of the battery though will play a big factor since most car Lithium Ion batteries over 10 years lose more than half their capacity and these batteries cost over $10,000 to replace) In essence the only people who will be spending this much on the Volt initially will be the same people who are buying the Prius from Toyota thinking they are saving the planet. The reason I am saying this is in reality, you are not saving money by buying one, even if gas was $10.00 a gallon and $10,000 compacts that get over 35MPG still exist...

Originally Posted by Supermans

Fritz said each category of vehicles will be judged separately. CAFE standards it seems is not all of GM's cars combined.. The only way it would apply is if the Camaro V6 gets replaced by a Volt like hybrid engine and get 200MPG, then the V8 could get 5mpg average and still exist. However I think GM is heading towards replacing the V8 with something else at that point but I hope I am wrong..

Like I said, watch the replay video and you will see Fritz mentions CAFE standards are not a fleetwide deal but have to be divided among categories of vehicles..

Originally Posted by Supermans

Well, I am not going to re-watch it to get the quotes exactly right on this issue, but needless to say it was asked what an affect the 230 mpg rating would have on Cafe standards for the rest of the fleet etc.. and Fritz spent quite some time answering the question. What Fritz said is that the Volt is in another category than cars and trucks and that the entire fleet of vehicles will have to meet or exceed Cafe regulations for their particular categories. I am assuming what this means is that the corvette and the camaro V8's down the road will incur a gas guzzler penalty and perhaps other government penalties as having the Volt in GM's lineup does not make a difference for that category. I can also deduce from this that GM's focus is on increasing efficiency in all area's including the sports/muscle car categories because Fritz did say GM has never missed a mark when it comes to Government regulations on MPG and emissions standards. I can assume this means the V8 will have to undergo some changes to meet all these new standards regardless of what other fuel efficient vehicles are in the lineup.. I wish there were a transcript of the event so I can get the exact wording.. ..

Originally Posted by Supermans

230MPG is a great number, however after 5 years, how much will the MPG's drop? After 10 years time and it is time to replace the battery, how much will it cost?? $10,000 for a battery replacement plus labor on top of that?? In the end, is it really that great a deal based on the expense? we need that type of information first before everyone goes crazy about these initial 230MPG numbers and how much you'll be saving on gas...Re-sale value on a car with a depleted battery? etc..

If you got this far, thanks for reading my posts.. The way I would like to see the Volts efficiency numbers divided up is how many MPG's will it get per year if you drive the car for 10 years times the average of 15,000 miles per year. How will half life of the battery play a roll in all this as well as battery cost later on.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Re; cost of the Volt...nobody said fuel efficiency was going to be cheap. Over consecutive Model Years, they expect the Volt to lower in price...but it's never going to be the same price as a Cobalt, for instance. :(

And by "category" re: CAFE....I'm 99% sure he's referring to passenger vehicles / light trucks. Those are two distinct categories that CAFE allows different standards for. In other words, the Camaro should still be averaged with the Volt...But the Silverado won't be averaged with it.

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Re; cost of the Volt...nobody said fuel efficiency was going to be cheap. Over consecutive Model Years, they expect the Volt to lower in price...but it's never going to be the same price as a Cobalt, for instance. :(

And by "category" re: CAFE....I'm 99% sure he's referring to passenger vehicles / light trucks. Those are two distinct categories that CAFE allows different standards for. In other words, the Camaro should still be averaged with the Volt...But the Silverado won't be averaged with it.

In this case, I hope you are right. However Fritz did say all vehicles will meet or exceed CAFE standards for their classes and that GM has never missed the mark.. So that can be interpreted in a few ways. I just don't see how 16MPG city /25MPG highway rating muscle/sports cars (Camaro/Corvette) will escape a higher standard forced by the Government for much longer, no matter how many enthusiasts want the V8 down the road..

All these batteries used in electric/hybrid cars are very very expensive. I read an article that had Q&A with someone working on the Volt and there are plans to have the batteries recycled once they reach their halflife by selling them to a company that can use them later on "daisy changed" until they die completely. So I'm figuring GM must have a trade in program for the old battery since buying a replacement will cost a small fortune (the price of a Toyota corolla from the rumors I hear).

I wonder what would happen if they throw the Volt powerplant into the heavier Camaro? I wonder if it'll get at least 50mpg's even though it'll run slow as heck..Or perhaps the strain on the battery would be too great?

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Supermans

In this case, I hope you are right. However Fritz did say all vehicles will meet or exceed CAFE standards for their classes and that GM has never missed the mark.. So that can be interpreted in a few ways. I just don't see how 16MPG city /25MPG highway rating muscle/sports cars (Camaro/Corvette) will escape a higher standard forced by the Government for much longer, no matter how many enthusiasts want the V8 down the road..

I'm watching the video now...so I can't comment on things he's said, yet...I'm only1/3 of the way through....BUT...I've heard people at GM say they want all their cars to meet or exceed class leading numbers before...not sure if that's what he meant to say...that being said, sports cars are safe, imo...that average factor of CAFE saves them.

Originally Posted by Supermans

All these batteries used in electric/hybrid cars are very very expensive. I read an article that had Q&A with someone working on the Volt and there are plans to have the batteries recycled once they reach their halflife by selling them to a company that can use them later on "daisy changed" until they die completely. So I'm figuring GM must have a trade in program for the old battery since buying a replacement will cost a small fortune (the price of a Toyota corolla from the rumors I hear).

Yep...very expensive. The Volt's Lithium battery technology runs about $1k for every kilowatt-hour. The Volt's battery is roughly $16k. However, it will only wear down roughly ~90% in ten years, iirc. This technology is expected, however, to drop in price rather significantly like other electronic devices in the coming years.

Originally Posted by Supermans

I wonder what would happen if they throw the Volt powerplant into the heavier Camaro? I wonder if it'll get at least 50mpg's even though it'll run slow as heck..Or perhaps the strain on the battery would be too great?

That's not an answerable question, sadly. :(. You can't just drop the Voltec powertrain into any car. The batteries run down a central, T-shaped cavity in the vehicle, and things like driveshafts and transmissions don't mean squat anymore. While there's the added burden of a couple electric motors. The car has to be engineered from the get-go for this powertrain. If this will happen, expect to see it in a sixth-gen Camaro based on a smaller, lighter RWD platform.

Second, weight a huge issue with these electric drive cars in terms of load and strain on the battery/motors. Just like turbochargers, electric motors canbe matched in size and capacity to a vehicle. If the Volt got a 230 city rating, I can't imagine a Camaro-sized/weight car getting any less than 150.

And 'slow' is quite the assumption. I imagine that if the proper motors were used, the car would be no slower than the V6 Camaro...these things have a LOT of torque.

[SS 376]

Even if their estimate is too optimistic by half, this would easily make my wife sell our Insight.

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I'm watching the video now...so I can't comment on things he's said, yet...I'm only1/3 of the way through....BUT...I've heard people at GM say they want all their cars to meet or exceed class leading numbers before...not sure if that's what he meant to say...that being said, sports cars are safe, imo...that average factor of CAFE saves them.


Yep...very expensive. The Volt's Lithium battery technology runs about $1k for every kilowatt-hour. The Volt's battery is roughly $16k. However, it will only wear down roughly ~90% in ten years, iirc. This technology is expected, however, to drop in price rather significantly like other electronic devices in the coming years.



That's not an answerable question, sadly. :(. You can't just drop the Voltec powertrain into any car. The batteries run down a central, T-shaped cavity in the vehicle, and things like driveshafts and transmissions don't mean squat anymore. While there's the added burden of a couple electric motors. The car has to be engineered from the get-go for this powertrain. If this will happen, expect to see it in a sixth-gen Camaro based on a smaller, lighter RWD platform.

Second, weight a huge issue with these electric drive cars in terms of load and strain on the battery/motors. Just like turbochargers, electric motors canbe matched in size and capacity to a vehicle. If the Volt got a 230 city rating, I can't imagine a Camaro-sized/weight car getting any less than 150.

And 'slow' is quite the assumption. I imagine that if the proper motors were used, the car would be no slower than the V6 Camaro...these things have a LOT of torque.

Yes..Torque,,I remember seeing a video of a small electric car running on a crapload of small batteries in the trunk getting extremely fast 0-60 times. If not the 6th gen camaro's perhaps the 7th gen ones will be built around an electric platform and be very lightweight. By then the V8 will surely be gone :( however if the top of the line Camaro delivers 1000 lbs foot of torque, I don't know who will be complaining..I would be scared to drive such a vehicle..And that would mean the end of the stick shift as well as we know it.. We'll just have to wait and see how lighter weight will affect crash test ratings since sports cars have to be able to survive crashes at the track.. At least they should.. And with a huge torque increase, it would mean you could be very close to a wall and hit it at a very high rate very quickly... More dangerous for sure.. All this is very interesting to think about..I will miss manual shifting though and the rumble of the V8 :( But all technology must be superseded at some point..

[stovt001]

This is great for CAFE standards (I defy GM to justify shooting down the Z28 now!) but does this really apply to the average consumer? Drive less than 40 miles a day and you get infinite miles per gallon of gasoline. Drive more, and you won't get anywhere near 230. This issue will be interesting as these types of cars become more common.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by stovt001

This is great for CAFE standards (I defy GM to justify shooting down the Z28 now!) but does this really apply to the average consumer? Drive less than 40 miles a day and you get infinite miles per gallon of gasoline. Drive more, and you won't get anywhere near 230. This issue will be interesting as these types of cars become more common.

This rating supposedly takes that into account. I expect by the end of the year, we will have a finalized rating procedure that we can examine and determine if it's realistic or not.

Somebody at GM elaborated on this in the video...I will see if I can find it.


EDIT; as I watch this video, I noticed that Fritz expects the first generation Volt to only sell 60,000 units. That either means really low production, or really short life-span...I bet the latter, because he also mentioned there are teams working on the second gen car already....


EDIT2: Watched the EPA rating bit of the video. Timestamp: 19:20. Apparently, in rating a car like this, there are two different metrics used. Big number here is 25Kw/100 miles, because it's an electric car. This tells us the electrical efficiency of the car. How much power is used to travel 100 miles?

The second metric is your common city/hwy ratings. And these are determined by assuming that a portion of your driving is being done while in electric-only mode, and another portion of your driving is being done with the range-extender engine on. The splits in driving mode is biased towards electric only mode. This together with other factors (to be explained later this year), makes this procedure a fairly realistic estimate when put in contrast to other vehicles on the road (which is really what the EPA rating is meant to be used for)

[talwell]

This mileage rating is best case scenario and is calculated after driving just a very slight distance after depleting the batteries.

For every mile that the car travels beyond the 40 mile battery charge it reduces the MPG - down to about 50-60 MPG at full distance.

None the less - THEY STILL KICKED THE BUTT OF THE PRIUS !!

[stovt001]

Bottom line, the more "hybrid-y" and "electric" things become, the less relevant MPG numbers become to real world results. Heck, even now I see them as more of an index, since it is all relative to your driving style. These cars are even more sensitive to changes in driving style and distance than conventional cars. Look how Top Gear proved that an M3 following a Prius driving flat out is more fuel efficient.

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by stovt001

Bottom line, the more "hybrid-y" and "electric" things become, the less relevant MPG numbers become to real world results. Heck, even now I see them as more of an index, since it is all relative to your driving style. These cars are even more sensitive to changes in driving style and distance than conventional cars. Look how Top Gear proved that an M3 following a Prius driving flat out is more fuel efficient.

Yeah, that Top Gear episode was pretty funny and eye opening at the same time..