Tune, Pulley, Long Tube Headers

[Blackdevil77]

Originally Posted by BPG

For what it's worth, I trapped 120 with just a roto fab intake, 125 shouldn't take much.

I also think, from a purely cost effective side, the lower pulley is much cheaper to change instead of the upper. To do the upper, you have to have it pressed off and on and the blower needs to be pulled or the engine lowered to get the snout off. The labor associated outweighs the option of going lower only. There is a ton of people that claim the smaller contact patch for the upper causes belt slip. I don't know, or care if that's actually true, but I decided (with advice from my tuner) to go lower only. Accomplished the same goal, with less overall cost. I don't know if you want to drive to northern va, but I absolutely can not say enough good things about the shop that tuned mine. John, (1fast is his screen name here) is truly a class act. His knowledge is is amazing, and his customer service is better than anyone I have ever dealt with. He took care of my car like it was his own. Dropped the car off on Thursday around 2pm, he had the LTs, injectors and pulley installed and the car tuned before 10am the next morning. I was told by one very popular shop here they would charge me extra labor if I brought my own parts for them to install. That has to be one of the most ridiculous business practices I've ever heard of and very indicative of being out for the money only. I brought my LTs that I got at a steal and my ID850s that I also got at a steal, and he didn't charge a cent over the price if I had purchased through him. I would highly encourage you to contact him if you have any questions.

That's awesome, maybe with the addition of headers and one pulley, I may be at my goal!

Thanks for the recommendation of the tuner, I'll map quest him and check him out also.

As for the pulleys, IF I were to do the upper pulley and the blower had to come out, I might as well get it ported at that point and maybe do the throttle body. Does this car use an 8 rib belt or a 6 rib? I haven't read anybody having a problem with belt slip with the 2.55" pulley. Is that a common problem???

Also, with the larger crank pulley, there is no harm in spinning everything else at that higher speed? The alternator won't get damaged from that or anything? I wouldn't think a 6% or 11% pulley would do it, but much bigger then that is spinning everything pretty fast. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm mostly thinking out load.

[BPG]

Originally Posted by Blackdevil77

That's awesome, maybe with the addition of headers and one pulley, I may be at my goal!

Thanks for the recommendation of the tuner, I'll map quest him and check him out also.

As for the pulleys, IF I were to do the upper pulley and the blower had to come out, I might as well get it ported at that point and maybe do the throttle body. Does this car use an 8 rib belt or a 6 rib? I haven't read anybody having a problem with belt slip with the 2.55" pulley. Is that a common problem???

Also, with the larger crank pulley, there is no harm in spinning everything else at that higher speed? The alternator won't get damaged from that or anything? I wouldn't think a 6% or 11% pulley would do it, but much bigger then that is spinning everything pretty fast. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm mostly thinking out load.

You should be free of belt slip with the 2.55. Yes, you might as well get everything ported if you pull it. Also, accessories like alternator are driven by a different belt, not the one that spins the blower.

[Blackdevil77]

Originally Posted by BPG

You should be free of belt slip with the 2.55. Yes, you might as well get everything ported if you pull it. Also, accessories like alternator are driven by a different belt, not the one that spins the blower.

Okay cool, so I'll definitely try the crank pulley first.

[jessrayo]

Originally Posted by Blackdevil77

Who is your tuner?

Also, if, and only if I HAVE to do a cam, I would do a mild cam, but I definitely don't want to remove the heads. That's what caused the problem in my last build. The heads didn't seal up properly and eventually, combustion gases started seeping into the coolant, causing the coolant to pour into the overflow and not go back into the radiator when the coolant cooled down. Eventually, the overflow would overflow, I'd loose coolant slowly and the car would overheat. And that's only one problem I had. The car spent more time in the shop then with me, and whenever it was with me, I'd always have the laptop with hptuners hooked up to it, logging everything because I was paranoid that something might go wrong.

So this time around, I want to keep it as simple as possible. As long as the car meets my goals, I'll be happy. If I can trap 125mph in the quarter mile with the headers, intake, pulley and tune, then I have accomplished my goal. I want to keep this car for a long time and be able to drive it around without worry. Hell, if I just do the one pulley and it gets me to were I want, I may stop right there.

I use ADM Performance. Andy 214-228-8782. I can pretty much guarantee you that if he opens up your motor it will be reassembled better than it was done at the factory. You won't have to worry about anything like that if you have the right builder.

Originally Posted by BPG

For what it's worth, I trapped 120 with just a roto fab intake, 125 shouldn't take much.

I also think, from a purely cost effective side, the lower pulley is much cheaper to change instead of the upper. To do the upper, you have to have it pressed off and on and the blower needs to be pulled or the engine lowered to get the snout off. The labor associated outweighs the option of going lower only. There is a ton of people that claim the smaller contact patch for the upper causes belt slip. I don't know, or care if that's actually true, but I decided (with advice from my tuner) to go lower only. Accomplished the same goal, with less overall cost.

I agree with the decreased labor cost of the lower and the boost can be achieved just as easily with just the lower. However, I believe that the stock GM isolator bearing is a design flaw in the supercharger that can easily be addressed with a solid isolator when the upper pulley is done. Make sure your builder is doing the isolator bearing and you will never have any of the strange supercharger noises. There are a lot of threads linking noises to bearings and isolators I kind of think they are all the same. Change the isolator, no problems ever.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336016

[BaylorCamaro]

One thing to consider (which has been covered in this thread already) is the added heat from spinning the blower more. I'm setting my car up for road course racing and not drag racing. Originally I wasn't going to touch the pulleys because I wanted to stay away from any potential heat soak and at ~550 rwhp that should more more than enough power for a road course.

However I started doing some research and it looks like I can still stay within the blowers efficiency by adding JUST the lower pulley. Here's a thread I started earlier today that touches on what I'm talking about..

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346134

[Blackdevil77]

Originally Posted by jessrayo

However, I believe that the stock GM isolator bearing is a design flaw in the supercharger that can easily be addressed with a solid isolator when the upper pulley is done. Make sure your builder is doing the isolator bearing and you will never have any of the strange supercharger noises. There are a lot of threads linking noises to bearings and isolators I kind of think they are all the same. Change the isolator, no problems ever.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336016

I just read this thread. So basically, the stock Superchargers will all eventually fail due to faulty part, and they have to replace the whole supercharger when it fails!? That's not reassuring. This car has been out since 2012, how did GM not fix this problem yet?

[ZO6 Bryan]

Originally Posted by Blackdevil77

I just read this thread. So basically, the stock Superchargers will all eventually fail due to faulty part, and they have to replace the whole supercharger when it fails!? That's not reassuring. This car has been out since 2012, how did GM not fix this problem yet?

They are not failing. They just rattle. It's by design. Don't worry about it.

Here is the response from the deign engineers.

Engineering Response - S/C Shaft Wear
I’m Ed Piatek and I’m the Program Engineering Manager on the CTS-V. I recognize that this forum represents the thoughts and experiences of some very passionate owners and enthusiasts, and appropriately many of us on the engineering team periodically review this and other forums to keep our finger on the pulse of this important group.

While we cannot respond or comment on every post or question, the number of comments and degree of inaccurate information around supercharger shaft wear merits an engineering response to set the record straight, and assuage any concerns of our V series owners. Here is the response from our engine experts:

The torsional isolator is used in the CTSv LSA engine to isolate potential gear rattle noise during idle. The isolator contains a torsional spring that fits over the shaft. Purpose of the shaft is to distribute the stresses in the torsional spring. As the spring goes thru its travel, the inside of the coils can contact the shaft. The spring material is intentionally harder than the shaft which by design results in visual witness marks and/or limited wear on the shaft. The witness marks and/or limited wear is expected and has been observed on all the Eaton component durability tests, GM engine and vehicle durability tests and on customer vehicles with no impact on the functionality of the spring and isolator. The shaft and isolator are in a sealed cavity, separate from the rest of the supercharger and engine.


Q: Will this shaft wear harm my engine?
A: No. The visible wear will not damage the engine. The supercharger and the engine were tested and successfully validated to meet all GM durability requirements…which are much more severe than any customer usage.

Q: What causes this wear?
A: The isolator contains a torsional spring that fits over the shaft. The purpose of the shaft is to better distribute the stresses in the torsional spring and prolong its life. As the spring goes thru its travel, the inside of the coils can contact the shaft. The spring is a harder material than the shaft…so that when there is contact, the spring will not potentially break. If the spring breaks, then the torsional isolator function is lost.

Q: Can the shaft wear all the way thru and broken pieces get into my engine?
A: No. The travel on the spring that is contacting the shaft is limited. It cannot wear all the way thru the shaft. The shaft and isolator are in a sealed cavity, separate from the rest of the supercharger and engine. It cannot be ingested into the engine.

Q: Can worn bits or wear debris from the shaft get into my engine?
A: No. Again, the torsional isolator is in a SEALED cavity inside the supercharger. The seals on the bearings have not been compromised and wear debris is fully contained in this cavity.

Q: Why is the isolator design better than a solid coupling?
A: The torsional isolator does precisely that – it isolates an even more objectionable gear rattle noise that was being heard inside the vehicle cabin at all times during idle. The solid coupling will not eliminate this noise.

Q: My car is now quiet after I replaced the isolator w/ a solid coupling…how do you explain that?
A: If the ONLY modification was the replacement of the isolator w/ solid coupling…then it’s unlikely that it’s completely quiet. Most likely, you WILL have the timing gear rattle noise inside the cabin. Initially, it may sound better because the random “knocking” noise outside the vehicle is reduced…but you’ve now traded that noise for the gear rattle noise. Now…if you also replaced the induction system and exhaust system w/ louder aftermarket/performance parts…then it’s no longer an accurate comparison because you may not hear gear rattle over the increased exhaust and other noises in the cabin at idle. By the way, the torsional isolator is not a serviceable part…and removing the front inlet to replace with another part has warranty implications.

Q: Will GM be releasing a service fix for the shaft wear?
A: No. The current torsional isolator design does not diminish or compromise the durability or longevity of the supercharger or the engine. It has been fully validated to that effect. It also provides a benefit to the customer in terms of reduced noise at idle inside the vehicle…where the driver and passengers will be located during vehicle operation.

[Blackdevil77]

Originally Posted by ZO6 Bryan

They are not failing. They just rattle. It's by design. Don't worry about it.

Here is the response from the deign engineers.

Engineering Response - S/C Shaft Wear
I’m Ed Piatek and I’m the Program Engineering Manager on the CTS-V. I recognize that this forum represents the thoughts and experiences of some very passionate owners and enthusiasts, and appropriately many of us on the engineering team periodically review this and other forums to keep our finger on the pulse of this important group.

While we cannot respond or comment on every post or question, the number of comments and degree of inaccurate information around supercharger shaft wear merits an engineering response to set the record straight, and assuage any concerns of our V series owners. Here is the response from our engine experts:

The torsional isolator is used in the CTSv LSA engine to isolate potential gear rattle noise during idle. The isolator contains a torsional spring that fits over the shaft. Purpose of the shaft is to distribute the stresses in the torsional spring. As the spring goes thru its travel, the inside of the coils can contact the shaft. The spring material is intentionally harder than the shaft which by design results in visual witness marks and/or limited wear on the shaft. The witness marks and/or limited wear is expected and has been observed on all the Eaton component durability tests, GM engine and vehicle durability tests and on customer vehicles with no impact on the functionality of the spring and isolator. The shaft and isolator are in a sealed cavity, separate from the rest of the supercharger and engine.


Q: Will this shaft wear harm my engine?
A: No. The visible wear will not damage the engine. The supercharger and the engine were tested and successfully validated to meet all GM durability requirements…which are much more severe than any customer usage.

Q: What causes this wear?
A: The isolator contains a torsional spring that fits over the shaft. The purpose of the shaft is to better distribute the stresses in the torsional spring and prolong its life. As the spring goes thru its travel, the inside of the coils can contact the shaft. The spring is a harder material than the shaft…so that when there is contact, the spring will not potentially break. If the spring breaks, then the torsional isolator function is lost.

Q: Can the shaft wear all the way thru and broken pieces get into my engine?
A: No. The travel on the spring that is contacting the shaft is limited. It cannot wear all the way thru the shaft. The shaft and isolator are in a sealed cavity, separate from the rest of the supercharger and engine. It cannot be ingested into the engine.

Q: Can worn bits or wear debris from the shaft get into my engine?
A: No. Again, the torsional isolator is in a SEALED cavity inside the supercharger. The seals on the bearings have not been compromised and wear debris is fully contained in this cavity.

Q: Why is the isolator design better than a solid coupling?
A: The torsional isolator does precisely that – it isolates an even more objectionable gear rattle noise that was being heard inside the vehicle cabin at all times during idle. The solid coupling will not eliminate this noise.

Q: My car is now quiet after I replaced the isolator w/ a solid coupling…how do you explain that?
A: If the ONLY modification was the replacement of the isolator w/ solid coupling…then it’s unlikely that it’s completely quiet. Most likely, you WILL have the timing gear rattle noise inside the cabin. Initially, it may sound better because the random “knocking” noise outside the vehicle is reduced…but you’ve now traded that noise for the gear rattle noise. Now…if you also replaced the induction system and exhaust system w/ louder aftermarket/performance parts…then it’s no longer an accurate comparison because you may not hear gear rattle over the increased exhaust and other noises in the cabin at idle. By the way, the torsional isolator is not a serviceable part…and removing the front inlet to replace with another part has warranty implications.

Q: Will GM be releasing a service fix for the shaft wear?
A: No. The current torsional isolator design does not diminish or compromise the durability or longevity of the supercharger or the engine. It has been fully validated to that effect. It also provides a benefit to the customer in terms of reduced noise at idle inside the vehicle…where the driver and passengers will be located during vehicle operation.

Thank you, I have been schooled

So in a nut shell, there is nothing mechanically or functionally "wrong" with the supercharger or supercharger isolator. It's just a noise it makes, which it makes by design and it doesn't adversely effect reliability or performance in any way, correct?

[ZO6 Bryan]

Correct

[Performance Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by ZO6 Bryan

They are not failing. They just rattle. It's by design. Don't worry about it.

Here is the response from the deign engineers.

Engineering Response - S/C Shaft Wear
I’m Ed Piatek and I’m the Program Engineering Manager on the CTS-V. I recognize that this forum represents the thoughts and experiences of some very passionate owners and enthusiasts, and appropriately many of us on the engineering team periodically review this and other forums to keep our finger on the pulse of this important group.

While we cannot respond or comment on every post or question, the number of comments and degree of inaccurate information around supercharger shaft wear merits an engineering response to set the record straight, and assuage any concerns of our V series owners. Here is the response from our engine experts:

The torsional isolator is used in the CTSv LSA engine to isolate potential gear rattle noise during idle. The isolator contains a torsional spring that fits over the shaft. Purpose of the shaft is to distribute the stresses in the torsional spring. As the spring goes thru its travel, the inside of the coils can contact the shaft. The spring material is intentionally harder than the shaft which by design results in visual witness marks and/or limited wear on the shaft. The witness marks and/or limited wear is expected and has been observed on all the Eaton component durability tests, GM engine and vehicle durability tests and on customer vehicles with no impact on the functionality of the spring and isolator. The shaft and isolator are in a sealed cavity, separate from the rest of the supercharger and engine.


Q: Will this shaft wear harm my engine?
A: No. The visible wear will not damage the engine. The supercharger and the engine were tested and successfully validated to meet all GM durability requirements…which are much more severe than any customer usage.

Q: What causes this wear?
A: The isolator contains a torsional spring that fits over the shaft. The purpose of the shaft is to better distribute the stresses in the torsional spring and prolong its life. As the spring goes thru its travel, the inside of the coils can contact the shaft. The spring is a harder material than the shaft…so that when there is contact, the spring will not potentially break. If the spring breaks, then the torsional isolator function is lost.

Q: Can the shaft wear all the way thru and broken pieces get into my engine?
A: No. The travel on the spring that is contacting the shaft is limited. It cannot wear all the way thru the shaft. The shaft and isolator are in a sealed cavity, separate from the rest of the supercharger and engine. It cannot be ingested into the engine.

Q: Can worn bits or wear debris from the shaft get into my engine?
A: No. Again, the torsional isolator is in a SEALED cavity inside the supercharger. The seals on the bearings have not been compromised and wear debris is fully contained in this cavity.

Q: Why is the isolator design better than a solid coupling?
A: The torsional isolator does precisely that – it isolates an even more objectionable gear rattle noise that was being heard inside the vehicle cabin at all times during idle. The solid coupling will not eliminate this noise.

Q: My car is now quiet after I replaced the isolator w/ a solid coupling…how do you explain that?
A: If the ONLY modification was the replacement of the isolator w/ solid coupling…then it’s unlikely that it’s completely quiet. Most likely, you WILL have the timing gear rattle noise inside the cabin. Initially, it may sound better because the random “knocking” noise outside the vehicle is reduced…but you’ve now traded that noise for the gear rattle noise. Now…if you also replaced the induction system and exhaust system w/ louder aftermarket/performance parts…then it’s no longer an accurate comparison because you may not hear gear rattle over the increased exhaust and other noises in the cabin at idle. By the way, the torsional isolator is not a serviceable part…and removing the front inlet to replace with another part has warranty implications.

Q: Will GM be releasing a service fix for the shaft wear?
A: No. The current torsional isolator design does not diminish or compromise the durability or longevity of the supercharger or the engine. It has been fully validated to that effect. It also provides a benefit to the customer in terms of reduced noise at idle inside the vehicle…where the driver and passengers will be located during vehicle operation.

I came across this thread while searching for a different subject, but I found the above Q&A with Ed Piatek (CTS-V Program Engineering Manager) very interesting considering I just recently received my extended supercharger warranty letter in the mail from GM.

I especially like the Q: Will this shaft wear harm my engine? A: ...the supercharger and engine were successfully validated to meet all GM durability requirements…which are much more severe than any customer usage.

Now, I realize the reason for the extended warranty on the supercharger is not due to the shaft wear, but I wonder how the current issue that triggered the extended warranty slipped by these severe GM durability requirements for all these years? This configuration of the supercharger has been in production for 5 years, that is why both ZL1 and CTS-V owners received the notice.

[Albusaidi]

Hey want your help and opinion about these modification for my camaro zl1
A friend of mine have suggested me to upgrade my car with these modification

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...Store_Code=LPE

http://m.ebay.com/itm/200980195123?nav=SEARCH

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...Store_Code=LPE

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...Store_Code=LPE

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...Store_Code=LPE

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...Store_Code=LPE

[jessrayo]

Originally Posted by Albusaidi

Hey want your help and opinion about these modification for my camaro zl1
A friend of mine have suggested me to upgrade my car with these modification

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...Store_Code=LPE

http://m.ebay.com/itm/200980195123?nav=SEARCH

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...Store_Code=LPE

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...Store_Code=LPE

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...Store_Code=LPE

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...Store_Code=LPE

ARH makes good long tube headers. None of the lingenfelter links came through the way they are posted... At least not for me. Just tell me what you have on there...I'm sure I have looked at it before... If Lingenfielter sells it I probably have tried it or at least considered it.

[Albusaidi]

Originally Posted by jessrayo

ARH makes good long tube headers. None of the lingenfelter links came through the way they are posted... At least not for me. Just tell me what you have on there...I'm sure I have looked at it before... If Lingenfielter sells it I probably have tried it or at least considered it.

I have edit the link you can now enter it

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...Store_Code=LPE

http://m.ebay.com/itm/200980195123?nav=SEARCH

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...Store_Code=LPE

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...Store_Code=LPE

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...Store_Code=LPE

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...Store_Code=LPE

[jessrayo]

Originally Posted by Albusaidi

I have edit the link you can now enter it

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...Store_Code=LPE

http://m.ebay.com/itm/200980195123?nav=SEARCH

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...Store_Code=LPE

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...Store_Code=LPE

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...Store_Code=LPE

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...Store_Code=LPE

That's the wrong belt and you will need this if you run those pulleys:
http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...=#.U-GBi7HCeZ0



That is a lot of pulley for a stock motor, I would highly suggest upgraded cooling reservoir and at least a cam and headers if you want that much boost. Of course you will have to have the car tuned.

Here is the pulley chart if I can make it work.