Shno's House of Z

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by mlee

Carbon Ceramic brakes to go with that power and you have the best of both worlds.

Just give me the raw power,... I'll figure out what to do with it on a car as capable as this.

Agreed.

I think that's what I like about cars like the Z06, and upcoming ZL1...their abilities are so varied, and limits so high in all respects...you just can't go wrong!

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

One of the articles mentioned it was within a second of the C6 ZR1, as well.

Maintaining speed around a track is far more important for lap times than the power required to accelerate around it...and this package (and the 1LE, for that matter) would seem to prove this.

If a 460 hp C7 GS is within 0.5 seconds of the C6 ZR1 around that track (Milford?), consider what it would do with ~15% more power.



Of course, the issue (as always) is cost. To do a Grand Sport otherwise the same as they did plus a brand new 'LT6' type engine (akin to the C6 Z06's LS6) would cost thousands more. To hit the same price point they're aiming for with an 'LT6' included, it means sacrificing other go fast equipment -possibly to where its basically just a more powerful Stingray.

[1leNPP]

I think the 460hp for the GS is spot on . There a reason that EVO pick the GT4 for there best driver car of the year and not one of the big hp car. It will make for a more fun to dive car on the track and on the street, it will be the best all round corvette GM has made .Cars have gotten to fast now days and when the brain made into the car is pulling the HP out of motor to try to get the car to hook up all that HP is a waste of time and money.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

If a 460 hp C7 GS is within 0.5 seconds of the C6 ZR1 around that track (Milford?), consider what it would do with ~15% more power.



Of course, the issue (as always) is cost. To do a Grand Sport otherwise the same as they did plus a brand new 'LT6' type engine (akin to the C6 Z06's LS6) would cost thousands more. To hit the same price point they're aiming for with an 'LT6' included, it means sacrificing other go fast equipment -possibly to where its basically just a more powerful Stingray.

15% more...20% more....30% more...50%........it's that sort of thought process that has brought us the LT4 engine in the first place. I think people want something special in terms of engines and horsepower "just because"...not because it's truly necessary. For the record - I know you're right. The Z06 proves that.

But, I have to imagine an "LT6" sort of engine like people are describing would be best suited for the Z06 in the first place. But...clearly it's not there. We've been told the reason is they cannot pull 500hp out of a naturally-aspirated OHV engine and still meet emissions regulations...apparently, even with direct injection. So why now, does anyone think it would be developed for and used in a Grand Sport? What is, effectively, nothing more than a clever hand-me-down option package?

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

One of the articles mentioned it was within a second of the C6 ZR1, as well.

Maintaining speed around a track is far more important for lap times than the power required to accelerate around it...and this package (and the 1LE, for that matter) would seem to prove this.

I agree that having the proper foundation is more important than the power, but what if the foundation can handle a lot more power than they give it?

With Porsche building a 500 hp 4.0 l flat six and Ford having the 5.2 Voodoo, I feel GM should address it. HP sells, even if the car doesn't perform as well. If GM can't do it, then they can't do it.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

15% more...20% more....30% more...50%........it's that sort of thought process that has brought us the LT4 engine in the first place. I think people want something special in terms of engines and horsepower "just because"...not because it's truly necessary. For the record - I know you're right. The Z06 proves that.

But, I have to imagine an "LT6" sort of engine like people are describing would be best suited for the Z06 in the first place. But...clearly it's not there. We've been told the reason is they cannot pull 500hp out of a naturally-aspirated OHV engine and still meet emissions regulations...apparently, even with direct injection. So why now, does anyone think it would be developed for and used in a Grand Sport? What is, effectively, nothing more than a clever hand-me-down option package?

Tadge said they couldn't hit their power goals while meeting emissions and durability. I don't think there was ever a specific number given. I have a hard time believing they couldn't best the LS7.


The only reason I even brought up the GS is because I figured it would split the difference between the Z06 and Z51. The power and price gap is big enough to fit something there. Plus, Camaro isn't getting a stand alone engine, so using the GS to justify it meant it could go in the a Z/28.

And honestly, the Z/28 is what I would be more interested in. I appreciate the Corvette but I'm more of a Camaro guy.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

With Porsche building a 500 hp 4.0 l flat six and Ford having the 5.2 Voodoo, I feel GM should address it. HP sells, even if the car doesn't perform as well. If GM can't do it, then they can't do it.

LT4? Is that not good enough?

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Tadge said they couldn't hit their power goals while meeting emissions and durability. I don't think there was ever a specific number given. I have a hard time believing they couldn't best the LS7.

Even the LS7 wasn't emissions legal. Somehow they got a waiver of some sort.

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

And honestly, the Z/28 is what I would be more interested in. I appreciate the Corvette but I'm more of a Camaro guy.

Me, too. Even at the likely similar price point, and the astonishing speed this Grand Sport is capable of....I'd rather have a ZL1.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

LT4? Is that not good enough?


Even the LS7 wasn't emissions legal. Somehow they got a waiver of some sort.


Me, too. Even at the likely similar price point, and the astonishing speed this Grand Sport is capable of....I'd rather have a ZL1.

I'm not sure that it is. It's a fantastic engine but there's a reason Ford has the 5.2 and Porsche has the 4.0. N/a engines are generally better for track focused cars. Ford is likely to bring out a f/i Mustang in the future and Porsche has twin turbo 911s but they still went through the effort of developing higher performance n/a engines.

If it was possible to get a waiver, then they should have done it again for the Z06 and kept the LT4 for the ZR1.

Well, at least we agree on something.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Even the LS7 wasn't emissions legal. Somehow they got a waiver of some sort.

As I understand it, it was emissions legal ... in the Corvette, in 2005. A decade later, in a car thats 600+ lbs heavier? I wouldn't be surprised if there was some finagling involved to get it certified.

But a new generation of engine, utilizing VVT & direct injection, along with more experience building 500+ hp engines makes it possible to produce more power with reduced emissions. No idea how much they could do with the LT series engine with current technologies, but low/mid 500's "feels" doable without getting overly exotic or complicated (such as a mild hybrid and 3 valves per cylinder and port+direct injection).

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by Number 3

This kind of makes me think about the necessity of 650 HP in a street car. I know there are many that think GM needs to up their game and go higher than the Hellcat, but realistically you can't use that on the street very well or often. Maybe some quick 0 - 60 runs on an expressway entrance ramp.

So this is all the goodness of the Z06 without the massive LT4. So if you want to go on the track, you have something pretty special, but for most, dare I say nearly all driving, the LT4 is just a big number.

Which begs the question on CTS-V. Can we get an LT1 powered version of that car? Or hopefully Chevy is considering an Alpha based sedan to replace the SS for 17 or 18.

Also if this does come in low 60's then will it destroy a GT350R without the Z07 package? Or even at 70ish for the Z07 package that should do it for not much more $$.

This also gives us a pretty good idea at what GM is pricing the LT4 as well when you finish the content comparison.

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

8k-9k + 55k base car would put the Stingray Grand sport around $63,000. That's outstanding, and far enough away from the $80,000 Z06 to not cause problems.



I tend to agree on all points.

Anything about 500-550 hp is.....just....not very useful. It's fun, no doubt. But there's a reason I didn't really miss the LSA when I traded into the 1LE. I want a 2SS/1LE, I feel that model would fit my habits and preferences the best....but since (right now) that doesn't exist, I've got my sights set on the ZL1. The only downside for me is that it has "too much power"...and is that a thing I can't deal with?

Anyways, a car with a chassis less likely to be overpowered by the engine provides for a far more exiting experience on the track.

I like your theory about LT4 pricing as well. Take a Z06...subtract the cost of the grand sport package, and what's left is the premium for the LT4 and related driveline reinforcement.

...which means we could take that number and add it to whatever the 1LE package costs........hmmmm. Oh, how I love speculation.

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

I think a C7 wide body with an n/a engine around 530 hp would have been a lethal track car you can run all day. The GS Z07 is within 2 seconds of the Z06 around MRC, despite the hp disparity, if the times I could find are right. With the extra power, it probably would have been much closer. That may be why GM didn't add any. During the H2H between the Z06 and ACR, they said multiple times the Z06 is very hard to drive at the limit. Maybe 650 hp is too much for the C7 platform.

I think that's where I'm at; I don't need or probably want 650HP. I've never been much for FI engines except maybe in a muscle car. After reading the comments on CF the 650 is very seldom useable and has to be modulated or it does break loose. The eLSD and being so much lighter in the front it should rotate fantastically. If 2 seconds behind the Z06 is all it is, no worries. Can't wait to check it out.

I don't think the GT350R stands much of a chance. 0-60=3.6 GS / 3.9-4.0 GT350R. Maybe the Shelby on a long straight, maybe.

[Bhobbs]

The GS should handle the GT350R fine, but the R really isn't its competition. The, or a I should say, Z/28 would be the R's competition.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

I'm not sure that it is. It's a fantastic engine but there's a reason Ford has the 5.2 and Porsche has the 4.0. N/a engines are generally better for track focused cars. Ford is likely to bring out a f/i Mustang in the future and Porsche has twin turbo 911s but they still went through the effort of developing higher performance n/a engines.

If it was possible to get a waiver, then they should have done it again for the Z06 and kept the LT4 for the ZR1.

Well, at least we agree on something.

Originally Posted by DGthe3

As I understand it, it was emissions legal ... in the Corvette, in 2005. A decade later, in a car thats 600+ lbs heavier? I wouldn't be surprised if there was some finagling involved to get it certified.

But a new generation of engine, utilizing VVT & direct injection, along with more experience building 500+ hp engines makes it possible to produce more power with reduced emissions. No idea how much they could do with the LT series engine with current technologies, but low/mid 500's "feels" doable without getting overly exotic or complicated (such as a mild hybrid and 3 valves per cylinder and port+direct injection).

This is an interesting article, and I strongly suggest watching the first half of the video. Pretty good insight into the engine decision-making process. Apparently, they went into the Z06 project fully expecting to replace the LS7 with something just like it, but better......

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2014/12/...charged-video/

This one was real good, too:

http://corvettes.about.com/od/histor...he-New-Z06.htm

"Tadge Juechter: I was a naturally aspirated (NA) fan, and would have loved to have [used an NA setup].

We looked at a number of NA designs, even with the best tech applied, we could not meet our horsepower, durability, and emissions requirements for the lifecycle of this car.

We looked at a turbo as well, but for total vehicle performance, it wasn't as good as the supercharged version."

[Number 3]

My immediate and sad thought is that the GS would have been the perfect vehicle to launch a NA 500+ HP engine that would likely be shared with a Z/28. So I interpret this to mean that engine is not meant to be.

[Bhobbs]

I've seen what Tadge was saying but I have yet to see anything about what power numbers they were trying for. If they were trying for 600+, that might be why.

I have a hard time believing Ford could make 526 but GM can't.