Sold the camaro to a dealer and now they want their money back.

[Moto-Mojo]

This thing is still going? IF it's even real, it boils down to this:

Car Dealer = "Car Expert." If they buy a car that turns out to be 'less than accurately represented', they pass it off onto the next unsuspecting sap and move on. No dealer EVER asks for their money back...and actually expects to get it. Period.

[jd10013]

Originally Posted by Moto-Mojo

This thing is still going? IF it's even real, it boils down to this:

Car Dealer = "Car Expert." If they buy a car that turns out to be 'less than accurately represented', they pass it off onto the next unsuspecting sap and move on. No dealer EVER asks for their money back...and actually expects to get it. Period.

I'd say it's simpler than that. if the op was legally required to disclose a roll cage or whatever else and he didn't, then he will loose. if he isn't, he's going to win. nobody but those trained and versed in cali law know for sure.

yes, sales are final, to a point. if you go buy a house and find out it the previous owner was murdered in it and the realtor failed to tell you, your getting your money back plus damages and legal fees.

[BigRedViking]

Ever looked at the disclosure on the back of a used car window tag? It usually says things like "may have bent frame, broken welds, cracked engine block..." they just need to add a few more lines, "may have been used as intended, might have had a power adder, possibly had a safety cage..." As for the issue of oem frame specifications, you only need to meet, or exceed oem specifications. The holes could be plugged with a nut, bolt, and washers. Furthermore the engine, and running gear may have plenty of life remaining. The dealer made their list, and checked it twice, also was declined for a signature on the aftermarket parts disclosure. Stealerships never pay much for cars regardless, they will still probably make a profit, or write off the loss.

[Mydivorcegift]

I actually went through something similar last year when we bought Monique's Hyundai.

Had he Altima in for service 2 weeks prior. 85k miles transmission was acting up. Had the trans fluid replaced and it was suggested I get a trans cooler installed. I said no...I mean really it's a stock 4cyl Altima.

Found a good deal on a Sonata Hybrid Limited here and took it into trade. Deal is done. After a week I washed, clay barred, and waxed it. There was faint dirty shadowed lines across the rockers.

I took it back to ask them if they would take care of it. Was told by the salesperson that "if you don't want the car we will undo the deal because the Altima needs a new transmission" in a typical car salesman smurf you attitude. I told him to go smurf himself. Manage came out and we talked. He said Nissan said it needs a new transmission. I told him I find that funny because it was in for service 2 weeks ago and it was not said then. He asked me to get the paperwork for the service which I did.

I politely told him "I don't know what to tell you. It may need a new trans but if I would have bought a used car from you and a week later the trans went out you'd tell me I'd have to pay to replace it". He said "well yes but we'd try to help you out". (IE we won't break it off in your a.. as much as we normally would".

[1st.gen.to.5th.gen]

Originally Posted by JerTM

They wouldn't give you your money back if you had bought it and discovered all that so I see no reason why you should have to do the same.

Agree. All sales are final when it's you buying a car from them. They should of looked it over better before they signed. When I traded in my 350z the niether salesman or manager could drive stick. They didn't realize I had lowered my car and bought it without driving it. It sat on the lot for a week before going to auction.

[LCPLPunk]

Not necessarily true. I bought a 2010 SS a month or so ago and upon further inspection after I bought it I noticed some holes in the subframe from rust. I had to use my negotiation skills, but they fixed it for me for free.

[D3R3K]

A bolt in roll bar and a blower = race car?

Also, the frame damage being reported by an auction inspector is bullshit. I'm a car dealer and have a lot of experience with this. I've had cars where a lift arm or floor jack bends a pinch weld = frame damage.

The auction inspector in most cases is a non mechanic with a clip board and pen that marks a box "frame damage" with a check mark for anything. Once they mark the vehicle with that it makes the wholesale value up to 20% less.

[JerTM]

Originally Posted by D3R3K

A bolt in roll bar and a blower = race car?

He had several posts on here selling interior parts, then more recently buying them and selling engine hop up parts. The full extent won't be known as they have all been deleted, but I suspect it was heavily modified.

[BlaqWhole]

Hmm, name like "Supercharged2011" with a bunch of deleted posts that you edited on the same day you made this thread which was 1 day after they called you. I'd say you're lying. You modified the car, took it to a Toyota dealership because you figured they wouldn't know, thought you got away with it, and now they're hounding you. I'll tell you one thing, anything and everything you do online or in public WILL always come back to haunt you. I'm sure they can have those deleted posts dug up if it went that far...nothing ever stays buried for long. LOL!! They can find out who you sold what to if they really wanted to dig. Honesty is always the best policy. Either that or don't post stuff that you may regret. If you lied tot hem about the condition of the car, or lied by omission, then no, the sale is not final and they will come after you. They are not in the habit of giving out money for something they can't sell and then saying "oh I guess we got screwed on this one"...not gonna happen. If I were you, before it goes to court and you end up with court fees tacked on, possibly even fines for deception and illegaly modding your car in California, I would call them and be honest and try to work something out. Get your car back and private sell it. And be honest with the buyer. Chances are, if you're honest, it'll work out. Don't tell them you tried to screw them over and get away with it. Just tell them that you're sorry and wanna make things right by them. If you don't have the money, then work out a payment plan with them. Or an agreement that you'll pay them when you sell the car off or over the course of a couple years or something.

[BlaqWhole]

And I'm sorry to sound like a jerk. But they have every right to be upset. They have a lot of expenses and costs just like you do. And they can't afford to be screwed over all the time or even once. If they can't legally sell the car, then they can't do anything with it. At least not without a salvage title or something that would significantly decrease the value. You wouldn't like it if a dealership did that to you. So likewise, they don't like it being done to them. It can't always be one way here. If a dealership did that to you, you'd post it and everyone would say "oh screw them"...but now you're doing it to them and everyone is still saying "oh screw them". In my eyes, they have every right to come after you. That is unless and only unless you honestly had no idea of the modifications...which you obviously did. Even if you didn't that isn't for the dealership to eat.

Plus, lying will get you nowhere. A carfax will tell them everything about where it came from, who the owner before you was, which dealerships it was at, which states it was registered in, etc. If any shop did work and reported it on carfax, they'll know. If it was serviced and put on carfax, they'll know. If you went to the track and put your vin number on the registration paper, it'll come up. If the car went thru inspection, they'll know. If you bought a part and used a credit card or check they'll find it. If you paid for work at a shop with your credit card they'll find it. So dude, just be honest and try to work it out. It'll be much better if you did.

[Buschman]

All the back and forth on this boils down to one thing. If the OP is being honest about refusing to sign a document stating the car was not modified. If he refused, as he said, and told them the car was modified and put back to stock then it's the dealers issue now.

They should have checked the car over before purchasing it. Ask yourself this. Would you purchase a Camaro that was, according to the owner, modified without taking it to a trusted mechanic to find out what was done to it?

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Hmm, name like "Supercharged2011" with a bunch of deleted posts that you edited on the same day you made this thread which was 1 day after they called you. I'd say you're lying. You modified the car, took it to a Toyota dealership because you figured they wouldn't know, thought you got away with it, and now they're hounding you. I'll tell you one thing, anything and everything you do online or in public WILL always come back to haunt you. I'm sure they can have those deleted posts dug up if it went that far...nothing ever stays buried for long. LOL!! They can find out who you sold what to if they really wanted to dig. Honesty is always the best policy. Either that or don't post stuff that you may regret. If you lied tot hem about the condition of the car, or lied by omission, then no, the sale is not final and they will come after you. They are not in the habit of giving out money for something they can't sell and then saying "oh I guess we got screwed on this one"...not gonna happen. If I were you, before it goes to court and you end up with court fees tacked on, possibly even fines for deception and illegaly modding your car in California, I would call them and be honest and try to work something out. Get your car back and private sell it. And be honest with the buyer. Chances are, if you're honest, it'll work out. Don't tell them you tried to screw them over and get away with it. Just tell them that you're sorry and wanna make things right by them. If you don't have the money, then work out a payment plan with them. Or an agreement that you'll pay them when you sell the car off or over the course of a couple years or something.

That OP...he's a real sneaky guy! Look at what he did...

OP takes car to dealer. Dealer inspects car.

Dealer: Sign this document about mods.
OP: No.
Dealer: Ok. Well...I'll still buy the car from you.
OP: Okay.

A few days pass.
Dealer: Hey OP. We found where a roll bar was installed. This is frame damage. We want our money back. Come pick up the car.

OP posts on C5 to find out if that in fact constitutes frame damage. Most C5 members side with OP. Some C5 members wanna throw stones at OP and dig into what mods he may or may not have had which doesn't matter one iota. The issue, and ONLY ISSUE, is that the dealer's auction house won't accept the car which will make it hard on the dealer to get rid of it, so now the dealer wants their money back and claims frame damage. All the OP wanted to know is IS THIS FRAME DAMAGE. My guess is that if it is then he will likely have to do what the dealer asks. If it isn't, then he likely is not legally obligated to take his car back...and shouldn't.

So y'all can keep trying to find out what mods this guy had all you want. But it has no bearing on what is actually going on.

Dealer's mistake was buying a used car when the seller refused to sign the mod notice.

OPs mistake was asking you all for advice.

[MrChrisLS3]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

That OP...he's a real sneaky guy! Look at what he did...

OP takes car to dealer. Dealer inspects car.

Dealer: Sign this document about mods.
OP: No.
Dealer: Ok. Well...I'll still buy the car from you.
OP: Okay.

A few days pass.
Dealer: Hey OP. We found where a roll bar was installed. This is frame damage. We want our money back. Come pick up the car.

OP posts on C5 to find out if that in fact constitutes frame damage. Most C5 members side with OP. Some C5 members wanna throw stones at OP and dig into what mods he may or may not have had which doesn't matter one iota. The issue, and ONLY ISSUE, is that the dealer's auction house won't accept the car which will make it hard on the dealer to get rid of it, so now the dealer wants their money back and claims frame damage. All the OP wanted to know is IS THIS FRAME DAMAGE. My guess is that if it is then he will likely have to do what the dealer asks. If it isn't, then he likely is not legally obligated to take his car back...and shouldn't.

So y'all can keep trying to find out what mods this guy had all you want. But it has no bearing on what is actually going on.

Dealer's mistake was buying a used car when the seller refused to sign the mod notice.

OPs mistake was asking you all for advice.

Yeah, no kiddin'. Just ask a bunch of jailhouse lawyers, lol.

The OP wound up doing what he should've done in the first place, and that was asking the governing officials if it was frame damage. They said no, and that's really the end of the story. The dealer has the burden of proof that it is. If it is not, then their beef is with the guy that checked that box at the auction, if that is indeed what happened. I think the dealer knows this but was just fishing for the easy way out.

As far as the ethical back and forth, there are some good points to each side, and certainly some things to think about. But at the end of the day, as long as the OP's work at restoring the car to stock was quality work, it doesn't matter that much. Would I be pissed if a dealer sold me this car? Not really, if everything worked as it should and the price was right.

What I wonder, is did the OP come out ahead by spending the money to get the stock parts, selling the aftermarket parts, and taking the dealer's offer, or would he have come out better by just selling the car as it was to an enthusiast that would've done the same thing to the car? That's the approach I would've taken anyway.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

That OP...he's a real sneaky guy! Look at what he did...

OP takes car to dealer. Dealer inspects car.

Dealer: Sign this document about mods.
OP: No.
Dealer: Ok. Well...I'll still buy the car from you.
OP: Okay.

A few days pass.
Dealer: Hey OP. We found where a roll bar was installed. This is frame damage. We want our money back. Come pick up the car.

OP posts on C5 to find out if that in fact constitutes frame damage. Most C5 members side with OP. Some C5 members wanna throw stones at OP and dig into what mods he may or may not have had which doesn't matter one iota. The issue, and ONLY ISSUE, is that the dealer's auction house won't accept the car which will make it hard on the dealer to get rid of it, so now the dealer wants their money back and claims frame damage. All the OP wanted to know is IS THIS FRAME DAMAGE. My guess is that if it is then he will likely have to do what the dealer asks. If it isn't, then he likely is not legally obligated to take his car back...and shouldn't.

So y'all can keep trying to find out what mods this guy had all you want. But it has no bearing on what is actually going on.

Dealer's mistake was buying a used car when the seller refused to sign the mod notice.

OPs mistake was asking you all for advice.

If he lied to the dealership, then I wouldn't fully trust what he says happened or that it happened the way he says it did. And I don't buy the whole innocent act. You can if you want. But I don't buy it. I'm not 6 years old nor am I ignorant. He bought the car and modified it. Then he returned it to stock, took it to a dealership that he thought he could get away with selling it to...or probably took it to several dealerships and this was the only one who would take it, lied to them about what was done, and got caught. All the evidence points to it. All the deleted/edited posts a day after they called him. Well, I hope he didn't use Paypal, lol. Because they'll find it if the transactions are in there or if he put it in the description. Or if he shipped it out thru UPS or USPS or FedEx and put it in the description. That is what is wrong with the world. Everyone thinks they're sneaky or can beat the system. All he has to do is be honest and work it out. If he doesn't, then he'll end up paying court fees, lawyer fees, fines, etc ON TOP of whatever he'll have to pay back to the dealership. There is always a trail and always something to find. You think you're gonna walk into a court room and tell a judge "oh I didn't know it had a roll cage"...lol, ok sure, let me know how it works out. They'll see right thru it.