Camaro VS Mustang Mega Thread

[St33lsinger]

Originally Posted by 66olds442

Oh, ya I forgot.

[1bad65]

Originally Posted by thePill

As far as Ford "screwing" their fan base... Who ultimately ended production and gave their fanbase nothing.. In the end, at least Ford fans were gettin' some from 2003 to 2009.

Originally Posted by thePill

I own a 5.0 and I can tell you that in a very short time, the aftermarket 4.6 parts will bottom out.. the 4.6 guys will be able to spend a 3rd of the money and get 3 times the results. It will not take a 4.6 more than $3k to exceed my stock 5.0 and i guarantee they didn't spend $36k for their GT.. the 4.6 aftermarket is huge and the prices will hit rock bottom very soon (remember the pushrod 5.0 aftermarket in 1995).

It's already happening. A year ago gears for my car were ~$300 at Brenspeed. I just picked some up there for under $200. I've noticed intake/tune combos are cheaper now too.

You're not keeping that 5.0 stock are you?

[thePill]

Originally Posted by stikSS

This topic wouldn't be beat to death if 75% of the ppl that post would actually go the track and see facts instead of posting a bunch of magazine bullsh!t.

That is true but it depends on what kind of track you are going to. Over here the tracks require turning and in this case this "VS" topic would never come up. There are 4.6 guys burning the Ring in 9 minutes (not stock) but take the same 4.6 car to Hockenheimring and the 4.6 GTs can do it in 2 minutes flat (stock), almost 5 seconds faster than the fastest SS (its the weight and the track has no elevation changes). the three 2010 Track Pack guys are faster than that and there hasn't been a 5.0 time recorded yet. On the Hockenheimring short track times are usually around 1:33 for the 4.6s (15-20 seconds slower than the average GT500s that run there). The 2010 Camaros are pretty much even with the '05-'09 4.6s, '10 Track packs are typically 2-3 seconds faster and still no 5.0 track times... The Hockenheimrings standard 4.6km track has very few long straights, the Hockenheim short 2.6km track has almost none and is more like an autocross than a road course.. Torque helps but not when you exit a turn and enter another.. weight and body roll makes the Camaro difficult to keep on line.


And those are times from young guys 21-25 age group that work full time military and race once or twice a month and I can honestly tell you, the Camaro's are NOT running close to the 8:20 at Nurburgring, the fastest I have heard was a 8:42 and he had some suspension work done... Again, don't read into the bullsh!t magazines times, especially if the test are conducted by the manufacture themselves. GM never listed the driver probably because it was Horst von Saurma.. which owns the fastest lap of almost every production car made at the Ring.. He is not an average driver, he is a ring specialist and is paid to run the ring.. If you are a regular guy, open track days are rare and crowded.. Most days you have to pay to run and it is not cheap...

Edit: It also makes us 4.6 and 5.0 guys feel bad when a GT500 owner says "I run Hockenheim maybe 2 or 3 times a year and pull 1:15 short track times, then put it away for the fall/winter"

[oldlugs]

Originally Posted by 66olds442

and 45 years later Ford can't produce a production muscle car to compete with the 66 W-30 off the lot
I think I like my trunk marking better "4-4-TOO MUCH"

You must be on drugs... Since when is a 14 second '66 442 considered quick? ...Only in Oldsmobile dreamland.
YOURS must have been one of those factory-freak 10 second cars, unlike all the other '66 W-30s that ran 14s; right?
I'm sure it's a really groovey car. Happy trails.

WARNING PEOPLE: STAY AWAY FROM THE BROWN ACID.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by 1bad65

It's already happening. A year ago gears for my car were ~$300 at Brenspeed. I just picked some up there for under $200. I've noticed intake/tune combos are cheaper now too.

You're not keeping that 5.0 stock are you?

If you are serious about real performance, do not sell your 4.6... the pushrod 5.0 guys laughed at the new 4.6 guys when it came out and I can bet that the 4.6 guys will do the same to us. Keep an eye on the market, even if you don't intend to buy.. just make a spread sheet and track the prices and watch them go down.. by the time they reach bottom, you should have a solid build plan that fits your type of race.

I do intend to upgrades, Steeda (Frank Stoddard <frank@steeda.com>) has my attention, the Stage 3 kit is great along with the control arms. the stock brakes are good (I have Brembos) but the brake pads need upgraded along with the rear disc and calipers. The whole car needs to come down an inch or inch and a half which Steeda includes in most stages. The wheels (although really nice and light weight at 30lbs) need to be changed to 18x10 rears/18x9/9.5 front with a 295/305 Nitto 555s in back and 275s in front. Engine will come later way after break in, maybe after a season or two. Two piece drive shaft needs to go, and a 200lb diet is in order...

Facebook me, search Kevin Mckinney.. profile pic is the same as my Camaro5 pic.. I actually post ideas up (not all good) and let the guys know what is next... just send me an invite with your Camaro5 name and I will add you up man.. and I am always open for questions, I have a troop that has a '09 4.6 and it is a beast, not sure I could take him at his level.. He spent only $4k in his car and still hasn't spent what I paid for mine.

[ffrcobra_65]

so ummmmm which is faster? The SS or the new 5.0 pony?

[porcupinekiller]

Originally Posted by 66olds442

and 45 years later Ford can't produce a production muscle car to compete with the 66 W-30 off the lot
I think I like my trunk marking better "4-4-TOO MUCH"

Really, you're too funny. Even a V6 Mustang or Camaro would rape that 66 442 stock. Lol
All you've proved is your lack of automobile knowledge. But hey if trying to insult others makes you feel better about yourself, then go for it. You just make yourself look like a fool.
The 1966 Oldsmobile Cutlass 4-4-2
Specifications
Wheelbase, inches: 115.0
Weight, lbs: 3,600
Number built: 21,997
Base price: $3,500

Top Available Engine
Type: ohv V-8
Displacement, cid: 400
Fuel system: 3 x 2bbl.
Compression ratio: 10.5:1
Horsepower @ rpm: 360 @ 5000
Torque @ rpm: 440 @ 3600

Representative Performance
0-60 mph, sec: 7.0
1/4 mile, sec. @ mph: 15.28 @ 94

[thePill]

Originally Posted by ffrcobra_65

so ummmmm which is faster? The SS or the new 5.0 pony?

The question isn't which is faster, the question is WHO is faster... How well the driver can handle his vehicle and what kind of race the driver is in... track conditions and layout.. basically, these two cars (and you can count the Challenger in) provided us with race cars (only to be used on race tracks) and we now have to calculate our upgrades and track conditions just like a ALL race teams do..

[thePill]

Originally Posted by porcupinekiller

Really, you're too funny. Even a V6 Mustang or Camaro would rape that 66 442 stock. Lol
The 1966 Oldsmobile Cutlass 4-4-2
Specifications
Wheelbase, inches: 115.0
Weight, lbs: 3,600
Number built: 21,997
Base price: $3,500

Top Available Engine
Type: ohv V-8
Displacement, cid: 400
Fuel system: 3 x 2bbl.
Compression ratio: 10.5:1
Horsepower @ rpm: 360 @ 5000
Torque @ rpm: 440 @ 3600

Representative Performance
0-60 mph, sec: 7.0
1/4 mile, sec. @ mph: 15.28 @ 94

You know better than that, don't waste your time.. In 55 years, if you keep your 500... You will say the same thing.. LOL.. Thanks for posting the stats though, I was curious to see the stats.. for the 60s that was really good..

[porcupinekiller]

Originally Posted by 66olds442

Oh, ya I forgot.

Don't show that to my 3 yr old niece!!!

[ULTRAZLS1]

Originally Posted by thePill

That is true but it depends on what kind of track you are going to. Over here the tracks require turning and in this case this "VS" topic would never come up. There are 4.6 guys burning the Ring in 9 minutes (not stock) but take the same 4.6 car to Hockenheimring and the 4.6 GTs can do it in 2 minutes flat (stock), almost 5 seconds faster than the fastest SS (its the weight and the track has no elevation changes). the three 2010 Track Pack guys are faster than that and there hasn't been a 5.0 time recorded yet. On the Hockenheimring short track times are usually around 1:33 for the 4.6s (15-20 seconds slower than the average GT500s that run there). The 2010 Camaros are pretty much even with the '05-'09 4.6s, '10 Track packs are typically 2-3 seconds faster and still no 5.0 track times... The Hockenheimrings standard 4.6km track has very few long straights, the Hockenheim short 2.6km track has almost none and is more like an autocross than a road course.. Torque helps but not when you exit a turn and enter another.. weight and body roll makes the Camaro difficult to keep on line.


And those are times from young guys 21-25 age group that work full time military and race once or twice a month and I can honestly tell you, the Camaro's are NOT running close to the 8:20 at Nurburgring, the fastest I have heard was a 8:42 and he had some suspension work done... Again, don't read into the bullsh!t magazines times, especially if the test are conducted by the manufacture themselves. GM never listed the driver probably because it was Horst von Saurma.. which owns the fastest lap of almost every production car made at the Ring.. He is not an average driver, he is a ring specialist and is paid to run the ring.. If you are a regular guy, open track days are rare and crowded.. Most days you have to pay to run and it is not cheap...

Edit: It also makes us 4.6 and 5.0 guys feel bad when a GT500 owner says "I run Hockenheim maybe 2 or 3 times a year and pull 1:15 short track times, then put it away for the fall/winter"

Ummm...the 10 SS beat the track pack 2010 mustang in a road course shootout.
It lost to the 5.0 by .1 tenth. (I believe it was road and track or C & D)

A non track pack stock 2005-2009 GT would get RAPED by a camaro on a road course. I would love to see a CONFIRMED TOTALLY STOCK 2009 GT match a 2010 camaro on a road course with the same driver.

Not that this is the end all of arguments. But a head to head comparo is more accurate than who knows who running them and you watching....

and I love how no one ever mentions pedders results. they know more than all of you guys combined on the subject but yet it means nothing.

[porcupinekiller]

Originally Posted by thePill

You know better than that, don't waste your time.. In 55 years, if you keep your 500... You will say the same thing.. LOL.. Thanks for posting the stats though, I was curious to see the stats.. for the 60s that was really good..

Hell in 55 yrs I'll be 102 !!!! Lol
Yeah I do see the point 66olds442 made about the tires on the GT500 and agree Ford could have done better. Which they did to a degree with the 2011 SVT PP cars. But still nowhere near enough and yeah it was probably in stock trim designed as a decent driver. They could have made the GT500 a better car but at the same time they would have had to jack the price even higher. The thing is that for a few bucks you can vastly improve the performance of the GT500 (or any Camaro, Mustang, etc). A couple hundred bucks for rear upper and lower control arms makes the GT500 much easier to launch. Any factory muscle car that you buy right now has price vs performance limitations. I think the Z28 is going to raise the bar for what you can get right off the showroom floor in the muscle car market. But the downside of that is that GM is leaving very little on the table for aftermarket improvement without spending huge money.
In the end buy what car you like (or can afford) and have fun with it. They're (Camaro, Mustang, Challenger) all pretty good performers for the money and look much cooler than most of the run of the mill cars out there.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by ULTRAZLS1

Ummm...the 10 SS beat the track pack 2010 mustang in a road course shootout.
It lost to the 5.0 by .1 tenth. (I believe it was road and track or C & D)

A non track pack stock 2005-2009 GT would get RAPED by a camaro on a road course. I would love to see a CONFIRMED TOTALLY STOCK 2009 GT match a 2010 camaro on a road course with the same driver.

Not that this is the end all of arguments. But a head to head comparo is more accurate than who knows who running them and you watching....

and I love how no one ever mentions pedders results. they know more than all of you guys combined on the subject but yet it means nothing.

A majority of '05-'09 Mustangs here have suspension mods, there are some stockers that run Hocken and they do very well. I believe that some tracks the Camaro can keep up with the 5.0 and TP 4.6, I also know that here in Germany, where some track layouts feel like a tea cup ride at an amusement park.. the Camaro isn't good at all.. Add in some straights, the Camaro would be better, eliminate those straights, 1 series BMWs will beat them... This is pretty well known over here, as those Camaro's are sold within the Ramstein community.. Track Pack 4.6s are really quick at Hockenheim for the price we Americans paid for them... 5.0s will running this summer and I hope to be quicker.. Camaros just don't go there to track.. they use the built in 1/4 mile and usually race alone...

[thePill]

One of my troops has a 2007 CS that he bought new, added suspension (no control arms) and tuned and runs with the Track pack guys at the Ring. He still has not spent the total amount I have for his car, and I outweigh him by 120lbs... Displacement and torque account for almost nothing when consecutive curves are present.. ask the M3 guys.. they have only 275-290ft lbs and weight 3600lbs.. but they destroy the Camaros here by almost 10 seconds a lap...

Edit... Ultra, you and I have discussed C&D/R&T before... I know you can't come to Germany for a field trip, but.. Look at Stevensons Motorsports lap times from last year Koni Grand Am cup... Look at each race, you will see that it is far from consistent race to race... Some tracks are good... most tracks are bad.