Sat in Camaro today, some disappointment

[greenrail]

Originally Posted by bobby35ny

I have a question to throw out there...................

How do you convince the public that the big 3 equal or surpass honda/toyota??

Really, how do you do it?

=bobby

That's the Gazillion Dollar Question.

I get so fed up with the Foreign Brands being so superior, attitudes of way too many people. Especially many who are much younger than I am. I admit it I am older (59 - if you need to know). I also admit to (in the past) owning Domestic and Foreign Brands.

Bottomline, I have gone back to the Domestic Brands for the past several years. The quality is (at least to me) equal to the competition. So it is a no-brainer. Buy from the Domestic Manufacturers. THese put the dollars into our economy. They provide jobs, they provide health care , they provide taxes to support our way of life.

Whenever, possible, I also tell people about the cars I own. AS I told Soctt back in Chicago, the Impala we own gets great gas mileage. On a recent trip to and from Milwaukee from the Chicago area, I was able to exceed 34 mpg in this car. Scott feigned the obivous response back to me "You mean it wasn't a T***** or an H****?"

Folks, that's a lot of what this is all about. Yes there are a lot of fine automobiles produced by the Nissans, Hondas, Toyotas, and others of this world.

It all boils down to what you get at a given price point. To me the Impala was a tremendous bargain espcially in light of how well it is performing for my family.

Is the CAMARO perfect? Hell, no vehicle is perfect. Because someone is always going to find something they don't like about it. That's reality.

I will say one last thing. I am tickled to death with the new Camaro. I have sat in it, I have examined it from stem to stearn, I have photographed the heck out of it, and I can always find something which isn't perfect about the car. However, for the price at which it is hitting the market, you are not going to find a better performing sporty coupe.

I know this was long winded, but darn it all, I love this Country, and I am dead set on doing whatever I can to ensure it is the Great Nation it should be!

I will now get off my soap box and go stand in the corner!

[stovt001]

Originally Posted by Hesh

I fail to see how a soft touch interior makes any difference on someones perception of a car. It doesnt make it better because its soft, plastic is plastic. What matters is if there are no large gaps, and it doesnt squeak and rattle while going down the road. When hitting a bump or pot hole the interior parts dont seem like they are going to fall off because of all the movement. Is the seating comfortable for extended drives. I think some peoples perceptions are skwed at what should matter in an interior. Yes the look of an interior is important, but not the be all end all of my decision. It just a small part of the car ,and in this car the interior with the rest of the package that is offered is ABSOLUTLY GREAT!!!! Now where is my kool-aid, fruit punch flavored if ya got it.

I disagree. You're right that having an interior that doesn't squeak or rattle is very important. Materials that are softer (more rubbery) are less likely to squeak or rattle. Two padded surfaces making contact produce less noise than two hard, thin, and hollow surfaces making contact. Also, soft touch plastics are important for any areas you're likely to rest a body part. Many people cruise with the window down and their arm on the door frame or with their arm on an arm rest. Some people rest their knees against the door and the side of the center stack. Obviously, softer materials are more comfortable. Again, going to noises, objects in storage compartments and other nooks don't make as much noise if they are in contact with softer materials. Then there is the durability issue. I feel more confidence in how a nice, solid, robust material will hold up over time. The cheap hard plastic GM has often used (including applications in my Cobalt) feels thin and hollow, like a moderate hit could break it. Finally, there is the matter of perception - hard plastics conjure up images of playschool toys.

[wildpaws]

jimhowie2000, I agree with all you had to say in your post, I too remember all of the problems seen with imports back in the past (probably before many users on this forum were even born). I just returned from the Richmond Auto Show, my wife and I both sat in the new Camaro there and we completely looked it over, interior, exterior, trunk, under the hood, under the car, I don't think we missed much of it. Based on what we saw I was very satisfied with the end result that Chevy has brought to us, I fail to see the many imperfections and wrongs that some on this forum seem to think are major issues. Would I change some things on the new Camaro if I could? You bet, but there is absolutely nothing in the current packages that is a deal breaker for me, I've never in my life seen a "perfect" vehicle regardless of the price point. Even the over quarter million dollar Lamborghini my friend took me for a short road trip in was not without changes I would have made. I have supported GM for a good number of years and will continue to do so as long as I am able, I did not see anything from other manufacturers that excited me today, I quite frankly thought the Nissan 370Z was a real disappointment, I thought the Mustangs on display were pretty blase, Toyota-don't even go there as that was a non-event. I did not see any crowds gathering at the Mustang or the 370Z, I consistently had problems getting decent pics of the Camaro due to crowds of people all over the car, inside, outside and all around.
Clyde

[UCF w00t]

Originally Posted by bobby35ny

I have a question to throw out there...................

How do you convince the public that the big 3 equal or surpass honda/toyota??

Really, how do you do it?

=bobby

By building amazing vehicles... like I expect the Camaro to be.

If they're able to build a car where someone's only complaints are:
the lack of vanity lights on mirrors
gas filler on 'wrong' side (even though there is no correct side)
2 steps to use the back seat of a sports car depending on where the front seat is (I firmly believe that you won't need to move the seat forward most of the time)
a wire going through the trunk that almost all coupes with that trunk config have
Dash IP that isn't soft (I don't even see why it needs to be soft)

Then they've done an outstanding job that is sure to win over the masses. Hopefully this car will get such great reviews that not only will it convince people interested in a 2+2 sports coupe to buy it but it will also serve as a halo and poster child for how GM has some very great cars in the lineup. This car has such a high profile that I really think it has that ability. And if the Volt succeeds next year in doing something similar then the opinion that the general population has of GM could change rather quickly. Add in the cruze, etc... here's to hoping this absurd belief is done for good sooner rather than later.

[kevin2323]

just saw the car...and i know im a dodge guy but im being honest...the interior blew hard....i havent seen more plastic since i sat in a 1998 honda civic....

gm also messed up by letting people sit in a base stripped camaro v6....sends the wrong message...i heard everyone around me saying they kept the outside like the concept why couldnt they do that with the interior or something close at least. the dodge section was full of people taking pics of the orange srt8 fully loaded. my dad, the unbiased one loved the feel of the cockpit challenger seats.

oh the only plus I saw about the interior was the seats were very VERY comfy.

that was the plus

[wildpaws]

Originally Posted by kevin2323

just saw the car...and i know im a dodge guy but im being honest...the interior blew hard....i havent seen more plastic since i sat in a 1998 honda civic....

gm also messed up by letting people sit in a base stripped camaro v6....sends the wrong message...i heard everyone around me saying they kept the outside like the concept why couldnt they do that with the interior or something close at least. the dodge section was full of people taking pics of the orange srt8 fully loaded. my dad, the unbiased one loved the feel of the cockpit challenger seats.

oh the only plus I saw about the interior was the seats were very VERY comfy.

that was the plus

That's quite different than the show I was at today (at least during the 3 or so hours I was present). Between the Challenger display and the Mustang display together you would have had a hard time scraping up a foursome for a poker game, not so around the Camaro as it was constantly crowded with people, hard to get a clean shot of the car and not include a dozen people's butt! And this was a Victory Red LT. I liked the comment from one person that had walked past the Camaro with hardly a glance on his way to the Dodge display, he was back 30 minutes later stupified at how much more you got for your money in a Camaro and commented on how awesome the new Camaro was.
Clyde

[z28camaro2471]

Originally Posted by kevin2323

just saw the car...and i know im a dodge guy but im being honest...the interior blew hard....i havent seen more plastic since i sat in a 1998 honda civic....

I'd like to offer something more intelligent, but your comment keeps leading me to the same response...:middlefinger:. Sorry if that seems juvenile but that is honestly how I feel.

And I would like to echo Wildpaws observation. At the Rochester show you practically needed to get a separate ticket to get in the Camaro. I could have driven away the Mustang or Challenger and I'm not sure anyone would have noticed.

Oh and we did have a base v6 at our show.

[fastball]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

Two thoughts:

I would never attempt to tell a hospital how to run their business....why? Because I've never worked in the health care industry.

YES -- I've had several hospital stays -- but I'm still not a subject expert......

(it could be argued that my hospital stay would have been MUCH better if a certain nurse........well........nevermind....but it would have only cost a few bucks more!!!!........) (OK -- I'll go stand in the corner now.....)


Now-- I'm not saying this to slam you.....

What I AM saying is that I take exception to "GM didn't HAVE to agree to provide health care............" -

Oh Really?

May I suggest you go and dig up any major newspaper from ANY of the Strikes that the UAW waged against the big three---

The last one was bad enough that the President of the United Statee became involved.

Go look at 1998 -- the strike nearly killed us -- and it nearly put several suppliers out of business. (go ask SLP!!)

IT IS NOT THAT SIMPLE...........

The U.S. auto industry has not been on a level playing field for many many years.........and I'm sorry, but I think people need to go and look very hard at the competition --

I remember sending a group (at the Atlanta Auto Show) to one of the Japanese displays -- asking them to find a car that had an interior as nice as the LT Leatherette Interior in the Aveo at the time (two years ago???)

They were absolutely STUNNED --

We suffer from a perception problem -- and a soft I.P. isn't gonna fix that.

Once again -- I remind you -- we utilized the15 Disciples on many many issues........it's not like we did not listen to anyone..........

At any point in time during the 1998 negotiations did GM even consider moving employee pensions to a 401k? At any time did GM ever consider moving employee healthcare to a third party so employees still have health insurance but the company isn't burdened by a $150,000 procedure on someone who hasn't worked for the company for 20 years or stuck paying the monthly bill of someone's prescriptions? That cash should be going toward soft IPs or longer electric range on the Volt. That's what would have made it fair to the rest of Americans who have to pay for their healthcare, not blaming the government for not providing it. That would have helped make profits on small cars more achieveable. That would help negate the $1500 or so legacy cost that GM has on every car they sell. A nationalized healthcare system would be a disaster. At least untill they clean up the illegal aliens but that a whole other bag of beans.

Scott, you talk about playing on a level playing field, but neither GM nor the UAW seemed to make solid business decisions in reguard to the rest of American companies NOT in the automotive world, thus giving the impression GM is not playing on a level field. Do you think a company like Microsoft would even consider funding pensions and healthcare when it can be done through third party?

If GM did make those proposals to the UAW and they refused them, what can I say? It was bad business.

[rolnslo]

Originally Posted by fastball

...Do you think a company like Microsoft would even consider funding pensions and healthcare when it can be done through third party? ...

Bad choice for your argument. I worked for Microsoft in the Windows Division from 1999 to 2005. They do fund their employee's healthcare out of the company's own pocket. They use a third party to administer the coverage but all of the healthcare costs, insurance premiums, and overhead are paid directly by Microsoft. It was the best healthcare coverage I have every had - 100% coverage, no copays, no deductables - didn't cost me a single dime for me and my family, including the $30k+ bills for the births of my two kids. When I left MS to move to Texas, it hit me just how great the health coverage at Microsoft really was - the COBRA payments were $1600/mo if I wanted to continue with the same coverage.

fastball - I understand your position on this but, quite frankly, I'm getting tired of your GM bashing, as I'm sure many others are that aren't willing to speak up. If you don't agree with how they do business, then go take your money and give it to some other company. You made your points early on in this thread and they've been heard and responsed to appropriately. You are starting to sound like 70COPO and his never ending complaints about the damn stripe length now....

PS: I hear they have great deals on Challengers right now - why don't you take your money and go buy "that perfect car" from Dodge instead...or better yet...go buy a Prius.

[DDustiNN]

Originally Posted by rolnslo

fastball - I understand your position on this but, quite frankly, I'm getting tired of your GM bashing, as I'm sure many others are that aren't willing to speak up. If you don't agree with how they do business, then go take your money and give it to some other company. You made your points early on in this thread and they've been heard and responsed to appropriately. You are starting to sound like 70COPO and his never ending complaints about the damn stripe length now....

PS: I hear they have great deals on Challengers right now - why don't you take your money and go buy "that perfect car" from Dodge instead...or better yet...go buy a Prius.

+1

@fastball: We get it, you don't like the fact that the dashboard in your 426 hp muscle car is not a pillow. Scott told you the reasons, and if you still don't like them, then too bad. So, please show your protest by not buying one. And while you're at it, STFU, get over it, and move on. People are getting worse and worse with their complaining these days...

[OUR72GTO]

We do not want this to be the next ABL !

[SandiCandi]

Originally Posted by rolnslo

Seriously? Those are your gripes - non-padded dash, poor access to the backseat and no lighted vanity mirrors? No offense but OMFG!

EDIT: I was going to type more but in light of gtahvit's post, I won't. The things you seem to care about are so far down my list of things I care about in a car that I guess I just can't relate to where your comments are coming from.

DITTO - what he said ! ! ! !

[SandiCandi]

Originally Posted by DkknightX

So don't bitch and complain about ammenity issues. If you could afford to buy a Corvette, you should. Hell, I would too. You'd be crazy not to. How could you really compare the two cars? If you could afford to buy a Vette, why are you preaching to the choir about your issues with the new Camaro?

Honestly I CAN afford a Corvette (and have one now). Believe it or not, and you don't have to, I find the Camaro a better car! Its a newer, better, more attractive look, newer suspension, from what I've heard more comfortable and its different (and a back seat!).
This car is the newest thing out there, better engineered, studied, and tested than anything thats out there now.
It is going to be worth the wait.

[bobby35ny]

Originally Posted by fastball

At any point in time during the 1998 negotiations did GM even consider moving employee pensions to a 401k? At any time did GM ever consider moving employee healthcare to a third party so employees still have health insurance but the company isn't burdened by a $150,000 procedure on someone who hasn't worked for the company for 20 years or stuck paying the monthly bill of someone's prescriptions? That cash should be going toward soft IPs or longer electric range on the Volt. That's what would have made it fair to the rest of Americans who have to pay for their healthcare, not blaming the government for not providing it. That would have helped make profits on small cars more achieveable. That would help negate the $1500 or so legacy cost that GM has on every car they sell. A nationalized healthcare system would be a disaster. At least untill they clean up the illegal aliens but that a whole other bag of beans.

Scott, you talk about playing on a level playing field, but neither GM nor the UAW seemed to make solid business decisions in reguard to the rest of American companies NOT in the automotive world, thus giving the impression GM is not playing on a level field. Do you think a company like Microsoft would even consider funding pensions and healthcare when it can be done through third party?

If GM did make those proposals to the UAW and they refused them, what can I say? It was bad business.

I was a union delegate up in NYC (not auto workers) And boy did we have the employer by the balls. It was so bad that I am on ANY employers side today. The unions in almost every field have gone too far.

=Bobby