10% Ethanol Fuel ?

[hot_rod]

>>>even more power

Given that Ethanol is about 2/3 the BTU value of gasoline, how does this work?

[BigRigMike]

Originally Posted by hot_rod

>>>even more power

Given that Ethanol is about 2/3 the BTU value of gasoline, how does this work?

Higher octane (113-pure; 100-105 E85) so you can run more compression or boost and it also contains oxygen in the fuel.

[Jason@JacFab]

Here where I am, we only used to run that stuff in the winter because they claimed cars ran hotter, better, and hence less emissions from your cold engine, well of course they were wrong. Then they passed a law that we had to run it all the time. Ask anyone that runs it, and they'll tell you they get worse gas mileage on E10. They just recently passed a law this year that they can now sell "Clear Premium", without the ethanol, because they figured not enough people bought premium anyway so it wouldn't hurt, and its beter for lawn mowers, saws, etc. I try to run the good stuff all the time, it's only a few cents more a gallon, and I do see an MPG improvement with it.

[motorhead]

Is it true that the entire country is going to 15% in a couple of years? If that's the case the current GT500 owners will be in a real hurt. My buddies has a GT500 ,and it says right in the manual. Nothing above 10%.

[BigRigMike]

Originally Posted by motorhead

Is it true that the entire country is going to 15% in a couple of years? If that's the case the current GT500 owners will be in a real hurt. My buddies has a GT500 ,and it says right in the manual. Nothing above 10%.

It is not true that the entire country is going to 15% it is just discussions on whether it should happen. EPA has not given approval for gas mixtures higher than 10%.

I would be surprised if the GT500 can't run on 15%. I assume that they state that in the manual to prevent people from running E85. Some look at the octane of E85 and think it could work as a race fuel.

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by BigRigMike

It is not true that the entire country is going to 15% it is just discussions on whether it should happen. I would be surprised if the GT500 can't run on 15%. I assume that they state that in the manual to prevent people from running E85. Some look at the octane of E85 and think it could work as a race fuel.

That's funny you say about the racing side of it. I know two guys at our local track that run e85 in their high compression cars.

[hot_rod]

Originally Posted by BigRigMike

Higher octane (113-pure; 100-105 E85) so you can run more compression or boost and it also contains oxygen in the fuel.

AH, got it, where not talking efficiency....

[Number 3]

The issue isn't just whether the engine will run on E85. Ethanol also does nasty things to fuel hoses and other rubber parts and o-rings in the fuel system. Think "dissolves". And it loves water so corrosion can be an issue as well.

There is more to running on E85 than just engine calibrations.

And running E100 like they do in Brasil is another story all together. Not just the drinkability , but startability.

[CFD]

Ethanol fuel is a nightmare. I continuously have to deal with customers who's carburetors, fuel lines and similar parts are destroyed from it, also as mentioned when ethanol gas sits it causes severe mosisture problems to the extent of causing corrosion in a short period of time.

[PHEOX]

Originally Posted by Rockhead

Yup just like mustangs.

WIN

[shaner74]

Ethanol does not contain the same amount of "energy" as gasoline. Therefore you need more of it to do the same amount of work. It's just a matter of physics. Vehicles get worse gas mileage and produce less power using ethanol. It's a huge scam if you ask me. Keep the corn in cereal and let us use gas in our vehicles.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by shaner74

Ethanol does not contain the same amount of "energy" as gasoline. Therefore you need more of it to do the same amount of work. It's just a matter of physics. Vehicles get worse gas mileage and produce less power using ethanol. It's a huge scam if you ask me. Keep the corn in cereal and let us use gas in our vehicles.

Couple of things...

Less fuel economy is true...only because we want to maintain equivalent power to gas. If we gave up 30% power, we could keep the same mileage. Gives a glimpse into what even the environmentalists would rather have...

Ethanol does contain less energy, but the higher "Octane rating" of somewhere around 104, would let it release that energy under more efficient circumstances...like crazy-high CRs. The Corvette Racing team uses E85 in their cars...so power isn't really an issue.

It's not a scam, and it doesn't come SOLELY from corn. In fact, corn is one of the least popular ways to make fuel-grade ethanol. It's just an alternative, and like anything else, it has pros and cons.

[fielderLS3]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Couple of things...

Less fuel economy is true...only because we want to maintain equivalent power to gas. If we gave up 30% power, we could keep the same mileage. Gives a glimpse into what even the environmentalists would rather have...

Ethanol does contain less energy, but the higher "Octane rating" of somewhere around 104, would let it release that energy under more efficient circumstances...like crazy-high CRs. The Corvette Racing team uses E85 in their cars...so power isn't really an issue.

It's not a scam, and it doesn't come SOLELY from corn. In fact, corn is one of the least popular ways to make fuel-grade ethanol. It's just an alternative, and like anything else, it has pros and cons.

Giving up 30% power will not increase miles per gallon on E85 to that of gas. Having a less powerful engine does not mean it takes less energy to move the car, it just means the engine works harder, and while running under a heavier load will increase efficiency, it will not come close to increasing efficiency enough to make up for the huge difference in energy content per gallon between the fuels.

And while the higher octane fuel means you can run a very high compression ratio for greater efficiency, such a high compression ratio means that it has to run exclusively on ethanol (or some other 100+ octane fuel), at least until variable compression ratio engines come into production.

Sure, ethanol has pros and cons, but most of the pros are only really useful for racing purposes, while most of the cons apply mainly for street use. Ethanol is a great racing fuel, but is a lousy daily driver fuel, particularily if you live in a cold climate.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by fielderLS3

Giving up 30% power will not increase miles per gallon on E85 to that of gas. Having a less powerful engine does not mean it takes less energy to move the car, it just means the engine works harder, and while running under a heavier load will increase efficiency, it will not come close to increasing efficiency enough to make up for the huge difference in energy content per gallon between the fuels.

No, it doesn't make up the difference, but it would help. Which leads me to:

Originally Posted by fielderLS3

And while the higher octane fuel means you can run a very high compression ratio for greater efficiency, such a high compression ratio means that it has to run exclusively on ethanol (or some other 100+ octane fuel), at least until variable compression ratio engines come into production.

An engine designed to run exclusively on Ethanol would likely return similar, if not slightly lower fuel economy ratings for similarly-powered engines. Ethanol burns hotter than gas, iirc -- which means you don't need quite so much to get enough heat to expand the cylinder gasses.

Originally Posted by fielderLS3

Sure, ethanol has pros and cons, but most of the pros only really useful for racing purposes, while most of the cons apply mainly for street use. Ethanol is a great racing fuel, but is a lousy daily driver fuel, particularily if you live in a cold climate.

A lot of the 'pros' are intangible. And a single con like "lower fuel efficiency" trumps them all.

Ethanol can come from next to anything if produced via a process like Coskata, a company GM endorsed/partnered with a year or so ago. And if it comes from a source like algae (a separate method) you would have a fuel that puts the automobile smack in the middle of a balanced environmental equation...completely taking it out of the 'global warming' discussion.

It can also be produced cheaply when brought to a sufficiently large scale, which means when gas prices go up (Or E85 goes down) -- your $$$ per mile swings in E85s favor.

Finally, and to me most importantly, it can be produced and regulated domestically...meaning it will be stable above all -- but also that we won't need to rely on others for our go-go juice.

I got deeper into this than I wanted, to -- sorry for almost derailing the thread!