New photos: Camaro Z28 Testing Against GT500

[BackinBlackSS/RS]

Originally Posted by ViperTomcat

You mean how they only sell a few thousand a month? Lets see..they produce roughly 3,300-3,500 each month..and sell around 3,000 each month..
Thats why they are more expensive, not because "its a failure on wheels". Dodge cant cut into Charger production because of the contracts it has with Police and Sherrif agencies and the fact that it is a full size sedan that has been extremely popular.

Word, I love the Challenger. I would have one now if the SS never was made.

[scythezo6]

Originally Posted by nards444

Thats why I said before an im sticking to it is I dont think GM can afford to come out with a Z-28 that cost 50 grand, nobody would buy it. And face it the GT500 is fast but nobody buys them because of the price, so its really not something to compete against. I truly beleive this car isnt a going to be a monster, i think its going to be a bulked up SS. I think your going to get something that has 500-525 HP some different badges, wheels, and maybe a few interior changes. I think the car will round out between 37-41k. Think about the selling point if the car cost under 40k say 39k. First off it beats the mustang GT and if car comes rated at 525HP, with a few extra mods youll be right at the GT500. I just dont think beating the GT500 is all to important to that many people .

+100

[SuperFly03]

Originally Posted by ViperTomcat

You mean how they only sell a few thousand a month? Lets see..they produce roughly 3,300-3,500 each month..and sell around 3,000 each month..

The Challenger's sales are also split up between 3 different trims (SE, R/T and SRT8), with alot of them being the low 30's priced R/T's. SRT's are the halo vehicle of the Challenger model. The low production volume capability (it shares Brampton with all the Chargers and 300's, and after next year, an Alfa Romeo) results in higher cost.

Consider how much a 2SS/RS L99 A6 (which is what you would have to have in order to equal a standard, base SRT8) would cost if they only made around 800 each month. Or..to make things different..how much a 1SS L99 A6 (equal to a base R/T Challenger) would cost if they only made 1,100-1,200 each month.

Thats why they are more expensive, not because "its a failure on wheels". Dodge cant cut into Charger production because of the contracts it has with Police and Sherrif agencies and the fact that it is a full size sedan that has been extremely popular.

So Dodge is already making more than they can sell? If that is true then production is no longer a constraint on sales.

Actually if it shared plant capacity then the resulting cost is lower per unit.

Same overhead of the factory split across more cars. The allocation of these costs would be based on production numbers. Thus, if the plant is shared across, let's say 3 cars (300M, Challenger, Charger) then the total cost of the plant (in direct costs only) would be allocated based on the production volume by car. However, the overall cost per vehicle is going to be the same. If the plant produces more cars then every car sees a decline in cost per unit but if you just change the marketing mix then the cost per car is the same.

The low volume argument works for R&D costs (fixed direct costs) but not factory production costs (indirect) if the plant is shared. One could argue (legitimately) higher variable costs due to low volume purchases/manufacturing (i.e. direct variable costs) but the Challenger, presumably, shares alot of parts with alot of other Chrysler vehicles given the platform sharing already in effect ergo reduced effect (Read: SRT 8 300M, SRT 8 Charger, SRT 8 Grant Cherokee).

The R/T is comparable to the 1SS in price but not in performance. It gets left behind.

The SRT 8 is more comparable in terms of performance to the 1/2 SS (1 or 2 really makes no difference) at which point you are parking a $44k car next to a $31/35k car (1SS/2SS).

Now, if you like the Challenger then you like it. Keep it, have it, hold it, love it. However, from a marketing perspective it's in a very funny spot compared to the Mustang and the Camaro.

[ViperTomcat]

Originally Posted by SuperFly03

So Dodge is already making more than they can sell? If that is true then production is no longer a constraint on sales.

purchases/manufacturing (i.e. direct variable costs) but the Challenger, presumably, shares alot of parts with alot of other Chrysler vehicles given the platform sharing already in effect ergo reduced effect (Read: SRT 8 300M, SRT 8 Charger, SRT 8 Grant Cherokee).

The R/T is comparable to the 1SS in price but not in performance. It gets left behind.

.

The R/T Auto and the L99 auto are very, very similar in terms of numbers (within a tenth, maybe a 1.5 tenths in the 1/4 and often dead even in a 0-60 run).

Now I can post all day and it likely wouldnt matter to the fanboys on any site. All I can say is that I've run against two Camaro's, a L99 and LS3, and have beaten both, the LS3 by almost two tenths (driver mod). A win is a win.

The Challenger SRT shares very little with the other SRT's. The 6.1L is the same, yes, as is the transmission and rear end.

What is unique to the Challenger:

Frame, wheels, dash, steering wheel, center stack, interior, front seats, rear seats, windshield, windows, body panels, headlights, foglights, emblems, exhaust, center console, cupholders, mirrors, moonroof, headliner, ECM, TCM and stability control.

ETC, really the only "SRT shared" items are the basic engine, transmission and rear end and brakes. Otherwise everything else on the Challenger is unique to it and is not shared by the other SRT's. Same with the R/T's vs the Charger/Magnum R/T's.

In the real world the Challenger and Camaro are closer than people think or are willing to accept.

[KarFan]

Driver mod is the most important. It's easy to forget from behind a keyboard internet bench racing that someone has to go out and extract performance from 412, 426, 505, 550, 556 etc horsepower machines on street tires.
It's still first to cross the finish line regardless of how much power is advertised to be under the hood.

[chain777]

Originally Posted by syr74

You're trying to have it both ways. First you insinuate that a longer warranty shows manufacturer confidence in the product and then you claim that the Hyundai/Kia warrant doesn't reflect that despite the fact that it is the longest new car bumper to bumper in the industry. Which is it?

As for complaints about warranty service not being performed or performed correctly as you suggest that is what you will find with any automaker to some degree. Also worth mentioning, that is a complaint more than a few consumers have levied against GM more than a few times and recently. In fact more than a few folks have suggested that a lack of consumer confidence in the product is the reason why both Hyundai/Kia and GM offer longer warranties with the insinuation being that they have to offer that longer warranty or the average Joe won't buy their cars. Typically they cite brands like Honda which still have a stellar reputation for reliability but which don't offer the longer warranties brands like GM and Hyundai do because they don't have to in order to sell cars.

Are they right? I absolutely think the longer warranties are marketing ploys, but I haven't invested the time into this issue to decide if I think a lack of consumer confidence is the reason for either company offering the same. The point here? The longer warranty argument comes with just as many thorns as accolades, and assuming that you preferred company offers a longer warranty because they know their car is ultra-reliable is not a universal viewpoint by a long shot.>snip

Bingo! Ultra long warranties are nothing more than a marketing ploy. Automakers use this to increase consumer confidence in their products to gain market share.

Look at Porsche. They're to top rated company in quality right now, and offer a 4 year/50,000 mile warranty. Do you think their cars a crap because they don't have an ultra long warranty?

[tooslow]

Originally Posted by nards444

I just dont think beating the GT500 is all to important to that many people.

Originally Posted by scythezo6

+100

Do you really believe that? 38 out of 64 (60%) of people on this very site, so far, said if the Z28 does not outperform the GT500, they willl not buy one.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...ighlight=gt500

[jshaf]

Originally Posted by macalot

I'm looking at this from a different perspective, please don't flame me...I'm not trying to stir the pot.
My feelings are that this car may not be the Z/28, it maybe a 'monster' version of the SS. I don't quite believe that GM will go the supercharger route for the Z/28...I'm still thinking we will see a different motor in the Z/28, not just a supercharged version of a current offering in the camaro. That's my .02¢, and i'm stickin to it!

exactly, the next Z28 is supposed to be on the Alpha platform so if that is true it should look somewhat different than the current model. this car looks exactly like the current Camaro, the alpha is not supposed to start till at least a couple years down the road. I think they might be testing out future engines in the current camaro for the Z-28 but got serious doubts that this is the z28 in the recent pictures.

[oldfriend]

Originally Posted by BackinBlackSS/RS

You are nuts!

Agree with you , and i also think that you must know more then what you are letting out , or you should/could be doing other kind off work !!!

[svttim]

Originally Posted by tooslow

Do you really believe that? 38 out of 64 (60%) of people on this very site, so far, said if the Z28 does not outperform the GT500, they willl not buy one.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...ighlight=gt500

Thats too bad. Either way, I assume the Z will be the top dawg Camaro. You like Camaro's, I would think you want to buy a Camaro. I think the points made above about driver performance are much more important. Funny, magazines are always testing 0-60 ect and they have lied, cheated and been bought out forever. Buy what you like. You can always make it faster

[BackinBlackSS/RS]

Originally Posted by oldfriend

Agree with you , and i also think that you must know more then what you are letting out , or you should/could be doing other kind off work !!!

I wish.

[jayman]

Originally Posted by ViperTomcat

The Challenger SRT shares very little with the other SRT's. The 6.1L is the same, yes, as is the transmission and rear end.

What is unique to the Challenger:

Frame, wheels, dash, steering wheel, center stack, interior, front seats, rear seats, windshield, windows, body panels, headlights, foglights, emblems, exhaust, center console, cupholders, mirrors, moonroof, headliner, ECM, TCM and stability control.

ETC, really the only "SRT shared" items are the basic engine, transmission and rear end and brakes. Otherwise everything else on the Challenger is unique to it and is not shared by the other SRT's. Same with the R/T's vs the Charger/Magnum R/T's.

In the real world the Challenger and Camaro are closer than people think or are willing to accept.

You have to be kidding when you say the challenger has unique parts not on the other srt cars.

the wheels were first on the srt charger, the seats are from the srt charger, the steering wheel and interior are from the srt charger as well as the stability control. I'm not saying they aren't great cars but they are a two door charger with different body panels.

[SuperFly03]

Originally Posted by jayman

You have to be kidding when you say the challenger has unique parts not on the other srt cars.

the wheels were first on the srt charger, the seats are from the srt charger, the steering wheel and interior are from the srt charger as well as the stability control. I'm not saying they aren't great cars but they are a two door charger with different body panels.

Not to mention other core components are the same as non SRT cars (frame, overall body, firewall, electronics, door panels, glove box, etc etc).

So yes there are unique parts but there aren't that many unique parts.

The most expensive parts are shared (engine, tranny, etc).

[svttim]

Originally Posted by SuperFly03

Not to mention other core components are the same as non SRT cars (frame, overall body, firewall, electronics, door panels, glove box, etc etc).

So yes there are unique parts but there aren't that many unique parts.

The most expensive parts are shared (engine, tranny, etc).

Bottom line is the Chally is a nice looking car and I would park one in my garage. But, its not on performance parr with the Camaro