IAT Whipple vs E-Force

[DarricSS]

Originally Posted by Total_Perf_Eng

Suggestion..

Take a look at a few of the other LS tech sites. There are 2 or 3 that have a huge technical section. One LS1Tech style website comes to mind that has more technical information that many people could even process.

Wander over there, and look up IAT information. Read up on how important this field is, in tuning. On the E38, E67, E36, and E40 PCM's, there is only 1 IAT field. (The Gen 5 Camaro is an E38) See how important these temps are in relation to tuning certain parameters in their proper location.

ATI Procharger, Paxton, Vortech, Kenne Bell, Magnacharger, Rotex, PSI, Eaton, Turbonetics, TTi, and Granatelli, ALL read the IAT's, post Poweradder (turbo or supercharger). This is not some "Blowhard" touting any specific blower, or discrediting any specific blower. This is mearly FACT.

No one is saying any one company is "Bad". But being as this is a "Discussion Forum", there is nothing wrong with having a discussion regarding IAT's on different blowers. Trust me, ive been dealing with KB for many years. We have been questioned 1000's of times regarding IAT's. Some have been off the charts. So im in no way saying KB is better. I personally have battled 200* IAT's in the past on previous edition KB's, before we figured out what worked. So I will NEVER say the KB has great IAT's. Cause they dont. NO top mount supercharger does. They all are too high if you ask me..

As a tuner, we have tested virtually every road going supercharger. To include the new Edelbrock, and Whipple. Both, which I might add are very nice systems. Almost every supercharger, has IAT's within 10* of ambiant on the vacuum side of the blower, at the air filter/MAF (provided it is capable of accessing fresh air). Why?? Cause its ambiant.. Its nothing more than the temps you are reading from the fresh air that the car is getting. Now, lets talk about the new Procharger. Are you gonna see 10* above ambient on that one? Of course not, because the air is being pulled from above the exhaust manifold. But fortunately, they have an extremely efficient air to air intercooler that is able to pull that heat out, and get the IAT's within a very acceptable range.

Example: Say your electric intercooler pump fails. You now, no longer have ANY intercooling. Your IAT's jump to 250*. Yet your car is running around thinking you've got 85* IAT's, so its commanding 100% timing; when in reality it should be pulling 7-15*. Of course youve got an IAT vs fuel modifier that starts dumping fuel into the motor, desperately trying to cool itself off, and slow the flame speed down; but its STILL commanding full timing. As I said, you have ZERO control. If you had that EXACT scenario, with the "Post Blower" IAT's, the PCM would see the spike, and it would start to pull timing. If it didnt come down, the spark would be so low, and the fuel so rich, that your motor would be completely safe. It would only make 50% of its power, but it would be COMPLETELY safe.

Boost generates heat. Its not a myth. It is a fact. A fact that every supercharger company on the planet has had to battle.

Again, nothing is being said bad, mean, vindictive, or bias, about anyone. This is mearly a discussion regarding IAT's

FWIW, GM reads the IAT's post blower on the ZR1, and the CTS-V. They will also read post blower on the supercharged Z28.


P.S. Unpaid blowhards, are still blowhards.. At least the "Paid" blowhard is a money wh**e. Whereas the "Unpaid" blowhard, is just a loud mouth S!*t.. Just kidding around.

Everyone reading the thread for a Discussion on Whipple and Edelbrock...thanks for once again turning the thread into a:


For KB $$

[Total_Perf_Eng]

. This statement proves that you have absolutely nothing to provide on this topic, and have mearly resorted to childish tactics.
Being that I openly said I didnt even approve of KB's IAT's, shows, that unlike you, I only side with a company when it has merit, and factual data. I dont just attack in the hope of getting in the good graces of a company. But if you choose to continue, its fine by us. Fortunately, the Camaro guys tend to lean more on the technically inclined side.

Obviously, based on the previous statement from GMRULZ, Whipple has decided that THEY TO feel that having all of the proper data for their customers is the best way to go. Hats off to them, as it will help their customers immensly. It will also, without question, result in higher overall power; Because it will allow more timing to be run in their main table.

Regardless of what the IAT's are, ALL competent tuners can tune accordingly. So its really a mute point.
As a car enthusiest first, I am excited to see the results of their kit. Contrary to your belief, I think it is an EXCELLENT design, and has its place among the very best blowers on the market.

Originally Posted by DarricSS

Everyone reading the thread for a Discussion on Whipple and Edelbrock...thanks for once again turning the thread into a:


For KB $$

[DarricSS]

I have been on this site long enough to see where your allegiances lay. Why not start your own thread for IAT's and you can toot your horn and be a keyboard commander all you want for KB? Maybe pick up some more donations while your at it?

[old motorhead]

Originally Posted by DarricSS

I have been on this site long enough to see where your allegiances lay. Why not start your own thread for IAT's and you can toot your horn and be a keyboard commander all you want for KB? Maybe pick up some more donations while your at it?

Now that's over the line, crass, and uncalled for. You should win a prize for that post

[Total_Perf_Eng]

You know what. Im gonna stop right here. Because you crossed a line that can get people hurt if their ever seen. To toss insults at a mans dying wife, and the donations she is receiving....WOW.. Thats low.

So you have said your peace, and I wont be responding anymore. I dont want to do something that is regretted later. Have a good day.

Originally Posted by DarricSS

I have been on this site long enough to see where your allegiances lay. Why not start your own thread for IAT's and you can toot your horn and be a keyboard commander all you want for KB? Maybe pick up some more donations while your at it?

[SRT10KLLR]

I appreciate sound information and it seems to me the previous posts are giving correct info regardless of what they sell. You can always check with other companies to get their take on things.

This week I was calling around looking for a good tuner because the Camaro is going to get boosted while keeping the nitrous. When I told one tuner about using nitrous he suggested the IAT trick. It is a resister used to trick the ECM into thinking the air is hot(200+) when the nitrous in activated so you can pull timing in those areas. It has been used for years on the LSX. Problem is if the pump in your w/a i/c goes out your IAT's will be high but the ECM will not know. Consequently the ECM would pull the timing for the nitrous but not any additional timing for the hot air so it could detonate. You shouldn't because the nitrous should cool the intake charge but why take the risk.

If you just have the sensor before the air goes into the motor then it is getting an accurate reading.


BTW, I will be using an a/a i/c so I can't have a pump go bad and using a tt instead of sc but the correct IAT info is still very important in the tuning.

[Total_Perf_Eng]

Correct.. Especially, since we were not selling, or promoting ANY company. This is mearly information provided by a tuner who deals with this for a living.

Every time I post in a S/C thread, does not need to turn into a "Your just saying that because you sell KB thread." This has NOTHING to do with KB. It is mearly a discussion regarding IAT's. There is no reason to turn this into something its not. Its not about our shop, or anything involving us. But if my experience can help someone, then I will take the time to post it up. We've stopped involving or our shop in what blower is better discussions. It always turns bad. We have chosen to break off from KB only, and no longer wish to involve ourselves in those types of debates.

Originally Posted by SRT10KLLR

I appreciate sound information and it seems to me the previous posts are giving correct info regardless of what they sell. You can always check with other companies to get their take on things.

[Bad Dad]

Originally Posted by Total_Perf_Eng

We like to use that spray silicone that evaporates. It works REALLY well for that type of stuff.

THANK YOU I work alot and want to get everything togeather before i start going to take my time i have found out being a perfectionist is not a bad thing at all no matter what the subject...

[Total_Perf_Eng]

No prob.. It works great on the rubber hoses, and barbed fittings as well. But most importantly, you can spray it on the intake manifold gaskets, and they will slide on the head surface without tearing or rolling. If you spray to much, it just evaporates. Unlike WD40, that just gets messy.

Originally Posted by Bad Dad

THANK YOU I work alot and want to get everything togeather before i start going to take my time i have found out being a perfectionist is not a bad thing at all no matter what the subject...

[Duke]

Maybe I can simplify this from strictly an engineering perspective.

The IAT at the air box determines the mass floww of air. The temperature after the intercooler determines the volume flow of air into the cylinders. The lower the temperature the lower the volumetric flow rate. Since the blower is positive displacement and the cylinder volume is fixed, the intercooler outlet temperature sets the blower discharge pressure.

All things being equal, lowering air charge temperature to the cylinders will produce the same horsepower with less boost pressure.

[03ss]

So I wonder if any one ever installed an IAT in the Whipple manifold to get a true IAt reading on how great the Whipple really is on the IAT temps?

[Meister@Torq]

Anyone who would install/tune a whipple without relocating the IAT should be shot on the spot

This is a picture from the setup we just finished.




IAT's were about 8-12 degrees cooler than a Maggy at a boost level 1-2psi higher than what we usually run on the Maggy setup. Of course the sensor is in a slightly different location so it is not a 110% accurate measure.

Plain and simple the Whipple is a larger blower, so it is more efficient and it will make less heat.

[Whipple Charged]

Originally Posted by Meister@Torq

Anyone who would install/tune a whipple without relocating the IAT should be shot on the spot

This is a picture from the setup we just finished.




IAT's were about 8-12 degrees cooler than a Maggy at a boost level 1-2psi higher than what we usually run on the Maggy setup. Of course the sensor is in a slightly different location so it is not a 110% accurate measure.

Plain and simple the Whipple is a larger blower, so it is more efficient and it will make less heat.

Thanks for the post. This sensor, when used with the stock transfer function reads slightly higher then the grommet style sensor. During testing, this sensor read between 10-20deg F hotter then the grommet style sensor that Magnusson and some other use.

[Whipple Charged]

Here you go guys, run on the dyno, this is a modified 6.2L Escalade motor. Custom cam, ported heads and dyno headers. The IAT2 temp shows 15-20deg F over the cell temp. This was with the GM 3/8" NPT screw in style sensor which reads a bit higher since it picks up manifold/head temp from the threads.

http://pdfcast.org/pdf/whipple-175ax...c-dyno-results

http://pdfcast.org/pdf/whipple-sc-dyno-results