Camaro VS Mustang Mega Thread

[THE EVIL TW1N]

Originally Posted by ULTRAZLS1

The one big gaping hole in that argument is simply this...

you say cam only like all cam only cars have the same cam. Depending on cam choice the horsepower could be 450rwhp all the way to 500 rwhp.

Hugger trapped 116 on street tires with a 2.5 60 ft. He is using a blower cam and making 470rwhp. He has no ported TB or intake. He is using a smallish cam without any supporting mods except exhaust and CAI.

G6x3 cams have made 500rwhp. Orange chevy made 485 (but also pointless because they are on different dynos)

Add 30hp to his build, better conditions, different set up etc, maybe a tire that he can actually accelerate with and 121 is not very hard to believe at all.

how many other g6x3 cam build so we have to compare his to? until then I do not consider it an anomaly. I consider it a very high horsepower cam and good condtions/driver/proper set up.

A g6x3 cam only build can make more power than a mild heads and cam set up. A lot of variables here you are just simply ignoring and blidly not giving the camaro its due...

There are a lot of variables and you have an excellent theory but the bottom line is that the 121mph currently does not look like the norm. It might change in the future who knows but empirical data and statistics are still on my side. For the moment at least.

[ULTRAZLS1]

Originally Posted by THE EVIL TW1N

There are a lot of variables and you have an excellent theory but the bottom line is that the 121mph currently does not look like the norm. It might change in the future who knows but empirical data and statistics are still on my side. For the moment at least.

Fair enough...

And I never said it was the norm....just very possible with proper set-up and conditions. He may have trapped less or more on a different track different day.

Also....going from ~370rwhp to ~500rwhp. Starting at a 110-111 trap speed.
130 horsepower should get you AT LEAST 10mph in trap speed if you are properly set-up.

But yes....we will see.

[danhr]

Originally Posted by THE EVIL TW1N

Wow so the details get even longer. You started off with an unassembled BARE pair of heads. Most people out there do not like getting into that kind of endeavor like worrying about properly reassembling them. The fact that u only took 15minutes to do it might say more about why your car only dynoed 464rwhp with those mods than anything else. Not doing things correctly or with proper attention to detAil usually shows up in one way or another!

it "dynod" low because I trusted someone else to "guess" my pushrod length and someone else to tune my car. Mind you both of these companies, I will leave unnamed, but are very mainstream.

and I for one would like to meet the person who is willing to go through the effort to take the heads off of their car, but not take the 15 mins to take a valve spring compressor and dissassemble a head to save a few hundred bucks... if you want... you can add $20 to my cost lists for a valve spring compressor to help keep you satisfied

and my car still trapped 118 mph.... mph is directly related to power.... ET is how efficient you put that power down.... even a junior dragster driver knows that

again... i just listed a fairly detailed list and figured out the end cost is still ~$32/rwhp... again.. not peak... but across the board..

i would again like you to explain how porting heads can not be justified. because again... what I just listed, shows a better bang for you buck than tuning/headers. You seem to be avoiding this.... I wonder why.

Are you saying now that headers/tune is a complete waste of money as well?

[THE EVIL TW1N]

Originally Posted by danhr

Are you saying now that headers/tune is a complete waste of money as well?

nope because those involve about a tenth of the work.

[danhr]

Originally Posted by THE EVIL TW1N

nope because those involve about a tenth of the work.

exactly how long do you think it takes to change a head? I'm pulling my heads again... I can time it for you... but the first time around I did it in a day and a half, taking my time, swapping everything from my old head to the new head, checking ptv clearance, waiting on a few parts, and also installing a cam

[THE EVIL TW1N]

Originally Posted by danhr

exactly how long do you think it takes to change a head? I'm pulling my heads again... I can time it for you... but the first time around I did it in a day and a half, taking my time, swapping everything from my old head to the new head, checking ptv clearance, waiting on a few parts, and also installing a cam

Your posts are starting to sound a lot like those "600rwhp for only $600!!!" Cover mags only to find out when you open the mag and actually read the thing they start out something like this: "we started all this out with an old zl1 block we had laying around, $0 there. Then we found a 540ci rotating assembly at a swap meet for $200. Then we went to a garage sale and scored some AFR heads for 100 bucks. Found some used solid roller lifters lying around and found a cam on craigslist for 100bucks and then slapped everything together and used the rest of the money on beer!! Viola 600hp 600bucks!!!"

[danhr]

Originally Posted by THE EVIL TW1N

Your posts are starting to sound a lot like those "600rwhp for only $600!!!" Cover mags only to find out when you open the mag and actually read the thing they start out something like this: "we started all this out with an old zl1 block we had laying around, $0 there. Then we found a 540ci rotating assembly at a swap meet for $200. Then we went to a garage sale and scored some AFR heads for 100 bucks. Found some used solid roller lifters lying around and found a cam on craigslist for 100bucks and then slapped everything together and used the rest of the money on beer!! Viola 600hp 600bucks!!!"

I will provide links to everything I bought. It was all MSRP... nothing on sale, no used parts.

Here is a picture of my receipt for my heads. I blacked some of it out for obvious reasons.

Bare West Coast cylinder Head L92s:

I paid $1289 shipped... I'm sorry I didn't include shipping in my original post

Head gaskets:
http://sdparts.com/details/gm-factor...parts/12610046
$68.80

Head bolts:
http://sdparts.com/details/gm-perfor...parts/17800568
$45.90

Lindy Flycutting Tool
$78.50
http://www.lindytools.com/

Now you shouldn't need new valves, because you can reuse the stock ones

and I don't think you should factor in valve springs, because to run a set of heads you don't need stronger valvesprings... to run a bigger CAMSHAFT you need stronger valve springs. And one should of bought valve springs with the camshaft anyways.

Total:
$1482.20, and again you could get ~$300 for your bare heads, so your end cost is going to be ~ $1182.20

Here is an article GM high tech did on swapping a set of West coast cylinder heads onto a camm'ed ls3 covette. with a before/after dyno.

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...wap/index.html

before/after dyno


Again... that's a 36 rwhp/30 rwtq gain ACROSS THE ENTIRE POWERBAND... not just peak, like most mods.

Now if you have any more questions, feel free to ask. I will be more than happy to assist you if you are confused about anything else.

[THE EVIL TW1N]

Originally Posted by danhr

I will provide links to everything I bought. It was all MSRP... nothing on sale, no used parts.

Here is a picture of my receipt for my heads. I blacked some of it out for obvious reasons.

Bare West Coast cylinder Head L92s:

I paid $1289 shipped... I'm sorry I didn't include shipping in my original post

Head gaskets:
http://sdparts.com/details/gm-factor...parts/12610046
$68.80

Head bolts:
http://sdparts.com/details/gm-perfor...parts/17800568
$45.90

Lindy Flycutting Tool
$78.50
http://www.lindytools.com/

Now you shouldn't need new valves, because you can reuse the stock ones

and I don't think you should factor in valve springs, because to run a set of heads you don't need stronger valvesprings... to run a bigger CAMSHAFT you need stronger valve springs. And one should of bought valve springs with the camshaft anyways.

Total:
$1482.20, and again you could get ~$300 for your bare heads, so your end cost is going to be ~ $1182.20

Here is an article GM high tech did on swapping a set of West coast cylinder heads onto a camm'ed ls3 covette. with a before/after dyno.

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...wap/index.html

before/after dyno


Again... that's a 36 rwhp/30 rwtq gain ACROSS THE ENTIRE POWERBAND... not just peak, like most mods.

Now if you have any more questions, feel free to ask. I will be more than happy to assist you if you are confused about anything else.

Most mods do not just gain at just the peak and the that is NOT a 36rwhp increase across the ENTIRE band. You're also conveniently leaving out the time it takes to do this and I've seen where the engine sits in the cami, it certainly does not look like fun reaching down there to put the heads back on and setting the valvetrain which is why most people on here would pay someone else to do it to $ave them the grief. If anything your posts are starting to look like an advertisement for West Coast Cylinder heads by the oversimplification and cost of the mods which might even fly in the face of this sites very sponsors!

[esperman]

Originally Posted by THE EVIL TW1N

Most mods do not just gain at just the peak and the that is NOT a 36rwhp increase across the ENTIRE band. You're also conveniently leaving out the time it takes to do this and I've seen where the engine sits in the cami, it certainly does not look like fun reaching down there to put the heads back on and setting the valvetrain which is why most people on here would pay someone else to do it to $ave them the grief. If anything your posts are starting to look like an advertisement for West Coast Cylinder heads by the oversimplification and cost of the mods which might even fly in the face of this sites very sponsors!

why are you guys having a pissing match over this? Wow. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work on your own small block chevy..the basic designs been around awhile. MODS are cheap for it.

[THE EVIL TW1N]

Originally Posted by esperman

why are you guys having a pissing match over this? Wow. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work on your own small block chevy..the basic designs been around awhile. MODS are cheap for it.

$1000 for headers are cheap? $1200 for exhaust?? almost $1000 for a FAST intake??? lets be realistic here about what cheap is.

[esperman]

Originally Posted by THE EVIL TW1N

$1000 for headers are cheap? $1200 for exhaust?? almost $1000 for a FAST intake??? lets be realistic here about what cheap is.

WTF are you going on about? Are all exhausts 1k? um, no. It's called shopping around. Same with heads. Same with intakes. Who the hell cares if danhr installed heads & a cam himself and saved acouple hundred bucks? Why are you arguing with him about it? I'm sorry if your not technically proficient and unable to work on your engine. Why blast those who do, and have damn receipts showing the costs?

Again I ask: why are you having a pissing match over this? You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work on your own small block chevy..the basic designs been around awhile. Can you just answer a simple question?

Truth is, if he had modded a 4.6 Mustang it'd be a lovefest in here. Let it go already....

[THE EVIL TW1N]

Originally Posted by esperman

WTF are you going on about? Are all exhausts 1k? um, no. It's called shopping around. Same with heads. Same with intakes. Who the hell cares if danhr installed heads & a cam himself and saved acouple hundred bucks? Why are you arguing with him about it? I'm sorry if your not technically proficient and unable to work on your engine. Why blast those who do, and have damn receipts showing the costs?

Again I ask: why are you having a pissing match over this? You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work on your own small block chevy..the basic designs been around awhile. Can you just answer a simple question?

Truth is, if he had modded a 4.6 Mustang it'd be a lovefest in here. Let it go already....

truth is, i never blasted him for doing his own work . The conversation turned to heads being an expensive mod for most people on this board (because lots here that i see drive their cars daily AND dont have the time or know-how to do their own work), to how much HE PAYED and what work he's done. If anything, he's just hijacked this thread into a West Coast Cylinder head advertisement.

P.S- You dont have to tell me how long the "small block chevy" has been around im well aware of it.I even used to own an LS1 Camaro. I wrench on my own cars as well and built my own solid roller stroker engine in my other vehicle (galaxie), but i see lots of people pay for labor because truth is, its a bitch to work on these cars sometimes and that drives the price of doing the heads way up./

[KungFuHamster]

Originally Posted by BackinBlackSS/RS

250 lbs and possibly a more aggressive gear are hard to overcome. The good news is, he isn't more powerful, just lighter.

i didnt bother reading the whole 10 pages of nonsense...especially when this gem was on the first page.

but i had to quite this post for being particularly ignorant. BackinBlack have you ever heard the name Carroll Shelby? He knows a thing or two about cars and i think he'd beg to differ.

[assasinator]

i do all of my own work also, to include pocket porting heads. machine work i pay for. everything alse is my work. my cost for doing this stuff is WAY less that those who dont. with that said....

there is NOTHING cheap about any of these new motors. LS motors are very expensive just like modulars. L92 heads not withstanding. L92's are an example of seriously cheap performance the aftermarket cant compete with.

that saying "chevy is cheap" went out the window when the small block stopped production, and the LS started.

i cant imagine how much a fellow spends, who cant do his own engine building, design, and fabbing.

now we are comparing build-up costs to see who is best. another draw.