Camaro VS Mustang Mega Thread

[thePill]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

That's a fair point, but like I said it doesn't bother me any...I don't plan on pulling into pit row on Interstate 90.


I can't really comment further because I'm no engineer or materials scientist and don't pretent to know what they "should" or "shouldn't" have done. I do know....that if it made sense at the time, they would have done it. Perhaps the Zeta chassis did not allow materials substitutions to intergrate what you're alluding to...that might be a factor behind the rapid development of the Alpha platform. Again....I dunno. It's neat to discuss it, though.

The website I posted shows many of the structures that are in production right now that use Boron or UHSS. its a 100% safe bet that the next redesign of ANY model will be a combination of 50-70% Boron, 30-40% Aluminium and the rest being assorted Fiberglass, Carbon Fiber, Ultra-high Strength Steel and High Strength Low Alloy Steel.. The use of Boron inside the saftey cage (surrounding the cabin) can reduce weight by over 3-5%, or in the Mustangs case, 108-180lbs..., Boron engine supports, Boron suspension maybe?

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by thePill

The website I posted shows many of the structures that are in production right now that use Boron or UHSS. its a 100% safe bet that the next redesign of ANY model will be a combination of 50-70% Boron, 30-40% Aluminium and the rest being assorted Fiberglass, Carbon Fiber, Ultra-high Strength Steel and High Strength Low Alloy Steel.. The use of Boron inside the saftey cage (surrounding the cabin) can reduce weight by over 3-5%, or in the Mustangs case, 108-180lbs..., Boron engine supports, Boron suspension maybe?

I've read that GM has set an aggressive weight target for the ATS...as in lighter than the 3-series...which already hovers around 3300 lbs with a 6 cylinder. Being a Cadillac it will be able to get away with the extra costs associated with all the advanced materials they'll be putting into it.

The Camaro will greatly benefit from all those engineering considerations the ATS will pioneer. However, they're also maximizing the flexibility of the Alpha platform so they can modularly substitute different amounts of exotic materials as required by the application. In the Camaro's case...it probably won't make as extensive use of advanced materials as the ATS...but I'd like to see them scale up use as the cost of the vehicle rises in say, SS and Z28 trims.

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by thePill

I am really picky when I drive a car though, the one thing that drives me absolutely crazy about the Camaro (and other cars too) is the gas cap is on the wrong damn side. It definately doesn't completely discourage me from buying a car that is backwards (My BMW 320i is backwards) but it bothers me... Another thing that bothers me is something most people do not know about or never notice, The Camaro would have been much lighter if GM would have used Boron steel on the safety structure. I believe it would have dropped the weight by about 100lbs if the structure was Boron, they would have easily passed the side impact test and could have used more aluminium panels. That really bothered me.. but again, I am really picky...

You ain't kidding! I just got my car back from the dealership for them to remove the bumper to get my headlights out to ship 'em out to AAC for a halo installation! So, they got everything in and on my way home to get some gas... I forgot that it was on the passenger side! Had to pull out, turn around and back up to the pump! I was thinking... you know you're car has been away for too long when you can't remember where your gas cap is at!

[porcupinekiller]

Originally Posted by a_Username

You ain't kidding! I just got my car back from the dealership for them to remove the bumper to get my headlights out to ship 'em out to AAC for a halo installation! So, they got everything in and on my way home to get some gas... I forgot that it was on the passenger side! Had to pull out, turn around and back up to the pump! I was thinking... you know you're car has been away for too long when you can't remember where your gas cap is at!

It was easier back in the day before strict safety regulations when you could just put the filler at the back of the car.

[snakekiller]

i love road racing and pro-touring, so the things they complain about are important for me. i felt the same way when i test drove the camaro ss coupe, i think they took the enthusiast way of thinking and wrote the article.

[8cd03gro]

The cars are so close in performance and price that any conclusion drawn from any review is going to be mostly based on preference.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by thePill

The website I posted shows many of the structures that are in production right now that use Boron or UHSS. its a 100% safe bet that the next redesign of ANY model will be a combination of 50-70% Boron, 30-40% Aluminium and the rest being assorted Fiberglass, Carbon Fiber, Ultra-high Strength Steel and High Strength Low Alloy Steel.. The use of Boron inside the saftey cage (surrounding the cabin) can reduce weight by over 3-5%, or in the Mustangs case, 108-180lbs..., Boron engine supports, Boron suspension maybe?

Are you considering that Boron can not be galvanized and is by nature less corrosion resistant? Are you considering the formability? (which includes Martensitic steels which is an UHSS and is essentially equal to Boron Steel in strength). Boron steel itself is a hardened steel. The hardness and strength enable thinner gages. Boron is simply an alloying element of steel. It is only a small element of the formulation by percentage. So Boron itslelf isn't lightening the steel, it is only hardening it. And Boron Steel is only slightly higher than Martensitic and DP Steels.

Each of these formulations has advantages and drawbacks. Boron Steel is no different. It has been used primarily in Europe and mostly by Volvo (formerly owned by Ford). So it isn't some new technology. GM even uses it in certain applications.

Also, a steel sedan body weighs in at about 800 pounds so even if you use the high end of your 3 to 5% weight reduction, that results in only 40 pounds, not 108 to 180. That is unless the Ford is starting from very heavy starting point.

Formability alone makes it difficult to use UHSS for certain applications.

Aluminum also has many drawbacks including cost that the application of the material is usually in high end ($$$$) vehicles. GM pretty much led the industry in the use of Aluminum in hoods, liftgates and decklids. You can Google SPF Aluminum and see what you get.

GM has used Carbon Fiber in many applications around the Corvette as well.

So the knowledge of materials and metalurgy is not foreign to GM. The Camaro has the benefit of all of that knowledge.

[esperman]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Are you considering that Boron can not be galvanized and is by nature less corrosion resistant? Are you considering the formability? (which includes Martensitic steels which is an UHSS and is essentially equal to Boron Steel in strength). Boron steel itself is a hardened steel. The hardness and strength enable thinner gages. Boron is simply an alloying element of steel. It is only a small element of the formulation by percentage. So Boron itslelf isn't lightening the steel, it is only hardening it. And Boron Steel is only slightly higher than Martensitic and DP Steels.

Each of these formulations has advantages and drawbacks. Boron Steel is no different. It has been used primarily in Europe and mostly by Volvo (formerly owned by Ford). So it isn't some new technology. GM even uses it in certain applications.

Also, a steel sedan body weighs in at about 800 pounds so even if you use the high end of your 3 to 5% weight reduction, that results in only 40 pounds, not 108 to 180. That is unless the Ford is starting from very heavy starting point.

Formability alone makes it difficult to use UHSS for certain applications.

Aluminum also has many drawbacks including cost that the application of the material is usually in high end ($$$$) vehicles. GM pretty much led the industry in the use of Aluminum in hoods, liftgates and decklids. You can Google SPF Aluminum and see what you get.

GM has used Carbon Fiber in many applications around the Corvette as well.

So the knowledge of materials and metalurgy is not foreign to GM. The Camaro has the benefit of all of that knowledge.

my old '81 Cutlass had an aluminum hood.....one of the only cars I had where I could take off the hood by myself lol

[snakekiller]

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

The cars are so close in performance and price that any conclusion drawn from any review is going to be mostly based on preference.

almost all the reviews if not all ended in the mustang's favor, i would think is not just preference. Most of The camaro's shortcomings become even more present in vert form, the addition of more weight just kills performance.
Performance and "feel" is what most magazines are about, sure they have bias with some cars, but that doesn't mean their entirely untrue.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by snakekiller

almost all the reviews if not all ended in the mustang's favor, i would think is not just preference. Most of The camaro's shortcomings become even more present in vert form, the addition of more weight just kills performance.
Performance and "feel" is what most magazines are about, sure they have bias with some cars, but that doesn't mean their entirely untrue.

[snakekiller]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

The truth hurts, people just chose to ignore it, you either think they are full of it, or you don't.

[ULTRAZLS1]

Originally Posted by snakekiller

The truth hurts

[thePill]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Are you considering that Boron can not be galvanized and is by nature less corrosion resistant? Are you considering the formability? (which includes Martensitic steels which is an UHSS and is essentially equal to Boron Steel in strength). Boron steel itself is a hardened steel. The hardness and strength enable thinner gages. Boron is simply an alloying element of steel. It is only a small element of the formulation by percentage. So Boron itslelf isn't lightening the steel, it is only hardening it. And Boron Steel is only slightly higher than Martensitic and DP Steels.

Each of these formulations has advantages and drawbacks. Boron Steel is no different. It has been used primarily in Europe and mostly by Volvo (formerly owned by Ford). So it isn't some new technology. GM even uses it in certain applications.

Also, a steel sedan body weighs in at about 800 pounds so even if you use the high end of your 3 to 5% weight reduction, that results in only 40 pounds, not 108 to 180. That is unless the Ford is starting from very heavy starting point.

Formability alone makes it difficult to use UHSS for certain applications.

Aluminum also has many drawbacks including cost that the application of the material is usually in high end ($$$$) vehicles. GM pretty much led the industry in the use of Aluminum in hoods, liftgates and decklids. You can Google SPF Aluminum and see what you get.

GM has used Carbon Fiber in many applications around the Corvette as well.

So the knowledge of materials and metalurgy is not foreign to GM. The Camaro has the benefit of all of that knowledge.

Yes, I know it cannot be galvanized so limiting the usage to just the safety structure might be as far as you can go. But seeing that GM did not use Boron in the safety cage, and if the Camaro's cage weighs 800lbs as is would be heavy. If GM were to use the same design and just use Boron then the weight loss would be lower.. But that is not the case with Boron, You use less material, making the safety structure smaller, thinner and more compact too achieve the same results as far as impact goes. If you don't change the casting then you are not maximizing the potential of the material. Would you make a Titanium roll cage just as think as a steel roll cage?

Also, Boron is hard to form.. the website I posted is not an automotive site.. It is a site to warn Emergency Services (like the Fire Department) of vehicles that use Boron because the Jaws of Life cannot cut through them... Everyone else is doing it, so should you.. Right IRS?

[thePill]

Like I said.. think out of the box GM.. If the steel is stronger, you need less of it. Change your castings, make them thinner.. that is where your weight savings comes from...

Edit: Yes Aluminum is expensive, because until now it didn't have a direct competitor for vehicle applications. What this boils down to is the Steel industry and the Aluminum industry fighting for superiority. Aluminum is weak but light weight and expensive, expensive because they could be at the time... If Boron challenges Aluminum the price will come down on both...

Do I think the Camaro is safe after I seen the diagram for UHSS?... No... Is it safer than the previous Camaro's? I think so...