ZL1 vs Corvette- Why do people insist this doesnt exist? Impacts on pricing/perf?

[IOMZL1]

Originally Posted by BumblebeeAmigo

The level the ZL1 is being built however is NOT to be king of the camaros. they are building a class A sports cars thats going to compete with the corvette and the GT500... That has to have effects on the chevrolet portfolio strategy.

I think the only reason GT500 is ever compared to Corvette is because people want a Ford vs. Chevy article in the magazine and Ford has nothing to offer above the GT500. In most of the articles they even point out that the cars are in different classes.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/comparison/2010-chevrolet-corvette-grand-sport-vs.-2011-ford-shelby-gt500

In the above article the GT500 somehow won because it cost $13,000 less even though it was worse than the Corvette in every category.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1104_2011_chevrolet_corvette_2011_ford_shelby_gt50 0_2012_nissan_gtr_comparison/viewall.html

In the Motor Trend article they ask themselves why the CTS-V isn't in the comparison and it is because the Corvette better represents GM's supercar. They also say the following about the last place GT500: 'At just over $55,000, an unbeatable supercar. At under six figures, there are two better.'

So price isn't equal - which allowed the GT500 to win the first comparison and come in last place in the second comparison. Regardless, it is always mentioned as a major difference between the cars. They are just being nice by allowing Ford to bring a knife to a gunfight when they don’t have a gun.

Nothing against the ZL1 or GT500, but they don’t belong in the same category as the Corvette even if they can put up similar performance numbers. The only remote reason GT500 is a competitor to Corvette is because the Ford diehards don’t want to buy a Corvette so they might pick a GT500 instead. Compare ZL1 and GT500 all day long, but that doesn’t mean compare ZL1 to Corvette. The GT500 to Corvette comparison only exists because they are two rival manufacturers top performance model offerings – yet they barely overlap in performance and price at the very bottom of Corvette’s trim level. Of the people shopping at the bottom of Corvette’s trim level very few are in the mindset of GT500 vs. Corvette.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by BumblebeeAmigo

So are you arguing that the ZL1 should NOT be compared to the GT500? in which case why are they doing 580 HP, I think more like 500 is more appropriate (in line with Boss). The GT500 is slated as the affordable supercar like the corvette.
580hp to best the existing model...and prepare for the future

I'd accept this argument EXCEPT the ZL1 is going to be TOO good and TOO expensive for this argument. In this case the ZL1 would have SS suspension, and probably a supercharged LS3 putting out 480-500 hp. Maybe make a few other tweaks like the boss has, and make it king of the camaro line, overpriced at about 46k for the camaro lovers who want the best.

The level the ZL1 is being built however is NOT to be king of the camaros. they are building a class A sports cars thats going to compete with the corvette and the GT500... That has to have effects on the chevrolet portfolio strategy.
The ZL1 is the King of Camaros. It's a very good bet that there will not be a faster factory Camaro...at least not in the 5th generation..

Let me ask you a question...Why cannot the ZL1 compete and dominate (performance) both the GT500 and the Boss? I addition to some world class cars like Jags and BMWs...

Wouldnt you agree? if the ZL1 was NOT trying to compete with the GT500 and "supercars", then it would be more like the mustang Boss... why would they be spending so much money on R&D building a true performance beast, and driving up the cost unneccessarily, lowering profits AND lowering sales OF THIS PROPOSED MARKET SEGMENT.
Why are they working this hard? To make it the best. Rest assured they aren't going to suffer financially for doing it.

I'd argue they are doing it because this is NOT their most significant proposed market segment, as if it was, we'd have a BOSS fighter on our hands, not a GT500/corvette fighter. Keep in mind the Camaro has only been around for 2 model years. It takes about that time to come up with a new trim level within a model. With this in mind...the Boss Mustang did not exist when they were planning the Camaro - nor will it for much longer. It's my understanding that it is a limited production/model year car.

GM stated that their job is to MAKE MONEY with the new cars, so obviously they aren't doing it to feel cool, they are doing it because they are trying to tap those additional markets.

Segmentation theory would suggest that there are buyer segments between the SS and corvette going untapped by GM. The Boss is Fords answer and the Zl1 is Chevys answer.... however, it goes against most logical marketing theory to cannibalize your own products unless it is part of a long term strategy.

True. However - the cannibalization has yet to be proven. There is a substantial argument that the Camaro SS models do not pull from Corvette buyers...and reasonable doubt that the ZL1 will pull from base Vette/Z06 models. They are two very different cars. I'd say it's much like being concerned that an Audi S5 would pull sales from the R8..

[EVoLGRiMM]

Originally Posted by IOMZL1

Nothing against the ZL1 or GT500, but they don’t belong in the same category as the Corvette even if they can put up similar performance numbers. The only remote reason GT500 is a competitor to Corvette is because the Ford diehards don’t want to buy a Corvette so they might pick a GT500 instead. Compare ZL1 and GT500 all day long, but that doesn’t mean compare ZL1 to Corvette. The GT500 to Corvette comparison only exists because they are two rival manufacturers top performance model offerings – yet they barely overlap in performance and price at the very bottom of Corvette’s trim level. Of the people shopping at the bottom of Corvette’s trim level very few are in the mindset of GT500 vs. Corvette.

If they already compare the 500 to the GS why would the ZL1 made to destroy the 500 not be compared by the same people to the vette. I understand and agree about the ford crybabies trying to hold on to some kind of hope. Also R&T comparisons the stang somehow beats the bowtie 9/10 times by some technicality.

That's exactly what we will do. Compare the ZL1 to both the 500 and the Vette.

Nothing but mostly playing devils advocate here

[IOMZL1]

Originally Posted by EVoLGRiMM

If they already compare the 500 to the GS why would the ZL1 made to destroy the 500 not be compared by the same people to the vette. I understand and agree about the ford crybabies trying to hold on to some kind of hope. Also R&T comparisons the stang somehow beats the bowtie 9/10 times by some technicality.

That's exactly what we will do. Compare the ZL1 to both the 500 and the Vette.

Nothing but mostly playing devils advocate here

I'm sure the comparison will happen and probably in a magazine as well. Those are just my opinions. I suppose they could compare things other than raw performance such as value, looks, and fun factor to even the playing field. It's all in good fun and I don't mind the comparisons because I think the ZL1 will fare well, but just trying to technically dissect the market.

[FC_GIBB]

I need a 4 door, bring back the G8 give it all the ZL1 goodies! Thanks

[Arachnyd]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Quote:
Originally Posted by BumblebeeAmigo

I'd accept this argument EXCEPT the ZL1 is going to be TOO good and TOO expensive for this argument. In this case the ZL1 would have SS suspension, and probably a supercharged LS3 putting out 480-500 hp. Maybe make a few other tweaks like the boss has, and make it king of the camaro line, overpriced at about 46k for the camaro lovers who want the best.

The level the ZL1 is being built however is NOT to be king of the camaros. they are building a class A sports cars thats going to compete with the corvette and the GT500... That has to have effects on the chevrolet portfolio strategy.
The ZL1 is the King of Camaros. It's a very good bet that there will not be a faster factory Camaro...at least not in the 5th generation..

Let me ask you a question...Why cannot the ZL1 compete and dominate (performance) both the GT500 and the Boss? I addition to some world class cars like Jags and BMWs...

That doesnt make logical sense though if their job is to make money, and the argument I'm referring to is that some people just want the "best" camaro and it doesnt matter what else is out there, then it seems foolish to waste the investment on making one THIS good. making one that was 500 HP with a few other tweaks based on the LS3 would still capture this entire proposed market, yet would make a larger PROFIT at a lower cost. If the goal is to make money, why would they spend so much time and money eating into their profit margins to make an even BETTER car than they have to to be "king of the camaros"? a company doesnt just do that "just because"- no they do that for one reason and one reason only, because they think they will get more buyers and more profit for doing it. therefore that disproves that the marketing goal of the ZL1 is simply to be king of the camaros and to be the best camaro ever, grabbing the people who just want something better than the SS.

Wouldnt you agree? if the ZL1 was NOT trying to compete with the GT500 and "supercars", then it would be more like the mustang Boss... why would they be spending so much money on R&D building a true performance beast, and driving up the cost unneccessarily, lowering profits AND lowering sales OF THIS PROPOSED MARKET SEGMENT.
Why are they working this hard? To make it the best. Rest assured they aren't going to suffer financially for doing it.

Really? Why would they make it "the best" if the target market doesnt care? (as initially proposed?) and yes in that scenario they would suffer financially for it. If I could make something for $5 and sell it for $45, or make something for $15 and sell it for $50, and exactly 500 people are going to buy it no matter what, which one would I make? I'd definately make the $5 one and sell it for $45.. therefore investing in anything more than a product needs to be is foolish.

I'd argue they are doing it because this is NOT their most significant proposed market segment, as if it was, we'd have a BOSS fighter on our hands, not a GT500/corvette fighter. Keep in mind the Camaro has only been around for 2 model years. It takes about that time to come up with a new trim level within a model. With this in mind...the Boss Mustang did not exist when they were planning the Camaro - nor will it for much longer. It's my understanding that it is a limited production/model year car.

GM stated that their job is to MAKE MONEY with the new cars, so obviously they aren't doing it to feel cool, they are doing it because they are trying to tap those additional markets.

Segmentation theory would suggest that there are buyer segments between the SS and corvette going untapped by GM. The Boss is Fords answer and the Zl1 is Chevys answer.... however, it goes against most logical marketing theory to cannibalize your own products unless it is part of a long term strategy.

True. However - the cannibalization has yet to be proven. There is a substantial argument that the Camaro SS models do not pull from Corvette buyers...and reasonable doubt that the ZL1 will pull from base Vette/Z06 models. They are two very different cars. I'd say it's much like being concerned that an Audi S5 would pull sales from the R8..

The audi R8 is over 100k, while the S5 is 55k. thats what keeps those out of market, plus the S5 is more in the market of the CTS-V, not the R8...

I think if they dropped the price to 55k on the R8 a lot of S5 buyers WOULD buy the R8.

heck, if the base corvette as currently listed was $38k, I'd be driving one now instead of the SS camaro, so I find it hard pressed to take cost out of the equation completely. The S5 is a luxury car with some oomph. What is the camaro then, a sedan with oomph? maybe, but I'd argue its a budget sports car for most people. The ZL1 will be a performance car that will compete with other performance cars, and if the price is on par with the corvette, a lot of people will move to the vette assuming the performance is better on the corvette.

I guess we will see in time however!

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by BumblebeeAmigo

That doesnt make logical sense though if their job is to make money, and the argument I'm referring to is that some people just want the "best" camaro and it doesnt matter what else is out there, then it seems foolish to waste the investment on making one THIS good. making one that was 500 HP with a few other tweaks based on the LS3 would still capture this entire proposed market, yet would make a larger PROFIT at a lower cost. If the goal is to make money, why would they spend so much time and money eating into their profit margins to make an even BETTER car than they have to to be "king of the camaros"? a company doesnt just do that "just because"- no they do that for one reason and one reason only, because they think they will get more buyers and more profit for doing it. therefore that disproves that the marketing goal of the ZL1 is simply to be king of the camaros and to be the best camaro ever, grabbing the people who just want something better than the SS.

Isn't the "Best Camaro Ever" and the "King Camaro" synonymous? It is to me...and perhaps that's a source of our debate, here....are we saying the same things?

When they propose a new car...when any company for that matter proposes a new product based on an existing one, it's usually supported in part by a dedication to make some more money off of it. Otherwise there has to be a DANG good PR reason to do it.

To make a quick note on the 500hp thing....they can't, and still keep the engine emissions-legal. If they could, you'd already see it in the GS Corvette...or model-year upgrades in the SS and standard Vette...

The most direct competition is the Mustang GT500. They are, however, seeming to target aspects of many entry-level supercars in the market...and with good reason. The GT500, though impressive, cannot make some of these claims with a straight face. The ZL1 can. And it's sorta like peer pressure....would you rather buy a car in the company of...itself? Or one that can nip the heels of some of the world's prestigious "supercars"?

Originally Posted by BumblebeeAmigo

Really? Why would they make it "the best" if the target market doesnt care? (as initially proposed?) and yes in that scenario they would suffer financially for it. If I could make something for $5 and sell it for $45, or make something for $15 and sell it for $50, and exactly 500 people are going to buy it no matter what, which one would I make? I'd definately make the $5 one and sell it for $45.. therefore investing in anything more than a product needs to be is foolish.

I didn't propose that the target audience didn't care. So maybe this is another source of our debate here. I believe the Corvette and Camaro target very different groups of people. But I don't believe the ZL1 will only appeal to those with blinders on. It'll HAVE to compete. And it'll have to prove itself a value for the money customers will need to pay to drive away in one.

Originally Posted by BumblebeeAmigo

The audi R8 is over 100k, while the S5 is 55k. thats what keeps those out of market, plus the S5 is more in the market of the CTS-V, not the R8...

I think if they dropped the price to 55k on the R8 a lot of S5 buyers WOULD buy the R8.

Yeah...I agree...It was a weak comparison, but I couldn't really think of much else outside of 370z nismo and gtr...

heck, if the base corvette as currently listed was $38k, I'd be driving one now instead of the SS camaro, so I find it hard pressed to take cost out of the equation completely. The S5 is a luxury car with some oomph. What is the camaro then, a sedan with oomph? maybe, but I'd argue its a budget sports car for most people. The ZL1 will be a performance car that will compete with other performance cars, and if the price is on par with the corvette, a lot of people will move to the vette assuming the performance is better on the corvette.

I guess we will see in time however!

The main thing the ZL1 will have versus a Corvette is standard features. Compared to a 1LT (49k) Corvette...the Camaro is LOADED where the Corvette appears stripped. To get equivalent options you're looking at 58 big ones, at least, what with the suede seating, HUD, Dual-Mode Exhaust, and MR, to start....

The second thing that will separate buyers is the layout of the vehicle. The Camaro is much more comfortable to get in/out of...much more comfortable to drive (though I haven't been in the 2012 Vettes with the new seats, yet...)...and it has that added benefit of a private trunk and rear passenger seats. This aspect alone will split buyers very sharply...

The third thing that the Camaro and Corvette find uncommon is their reputation. Think bar-brawler versus fencing champion...Some people will DIE to own a Corvette, at all costs. Others don't give a crap and just want to go fast. Don't underestimate a person's character in the buying process....

Now...I'm not goofy enough to pretend there will be NO cross-shopping...it's bound to happen in some capacity or another. But I think it will be very rare compared to Fusion vs Malibu, or Camaro vs Mustang.

I hope I clarified what I was thinking better...there seems to have been some confusion earlier...

[DLB]

this answer is YOU MUST BUY BOTH! if you cant afford it....... work harder..... cant work harder then make your money work harder for you..... cant make your money work any harder..... ask your gf/husban/wife/alien for it.... if they wont give it to you.... take out a fake student loan..... if your credit wont support it.... steel one..... dont have a car to get to the dealer... call a cab. just what ever you do dont buy a hooker.... cars are cheaper and theres no surprize 9 months later......

if you take this serously.... go see a funny movie.... peace

[calbert1999]

Originally Posted by b4z

You've been given some misinformation. LSA has rotocasted heads, powdered metal rods, etc. + a TVS 1900 supercharger, the LS9 has the forged internals you talked about + a TVS 2300 supercharger.

The guys on cadillacforums are running 650 rwhp on LSA's. They are borderline at the hp level and I know of at least 1 block failure.

We're saying the same thing. Just because the block is the same between vehicles doesn't mean the engine is the same Camaro vs Cadillac vs Corvette.

[fiascoes1]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

True. However - the cannibalization has yet to be proven. There is a substantial argument that the Camaro SS models do not pull from Corvette buyers...and reasonable doubt that the ZL1 will pull from base Vette/Z06 models. They are two very different cars. I'd say it's much like being concerned that an Audi S5 would pull sales from the R8..

either way chevy will be making money, camaro and corvette buyers= money for chevy

[Arachnyd]

Originally Posted by IOMZL1

I think the only reason GT500 is ever compared to Corvette is because people want a Ford vs. Chevy article in the magazine and Ford has nothing to offer above the GT500. In most of the articles they even point out that the cars are in different classes.
Valid, but not going against my argument then… the ZL1 will then separate the Corvette OUT of those comparisons.
In the Motor Trend article they ask themselves why the CTS-V isn't in the comparison and it is because the Corvette better represents GM's supercar. They also say the following about the last place GT500: 'At just over $55,000, an unbeatable supercar. At under six figures, there are two better.'
Also valid, but you pointed out that “the Corvette better represents GM’s supercar”- that also shows that GM MUST preserve the supercar status of the corvette, and cannot let it get beat out performance wise by an “inferior car”- true of the ZL1 OR the GT500. (I don’t care about actual performance, just market perceptions)
Nothing against the ZL1 or GT500, but they don’t belong in the same category as the Corvette even if they can put up similar performance numbers. The only remote reason GT500 is a competitor to Corvette is because the Ford diehards don’t want to buy a Corvette so they might pick a GT500 instead. Compare ZL1 and GT500 all day long, but that doesn’t mean compare ZL1 to Corvette. The GT500 to Corvette comparison only exists because they are two rival manufacturers top performance model offerings – yet they barely overlap in performance and price at the very bottom of Corvette’s trim level. Of the people shopping at the bottom of Corvette’s trim level very few are in the mindset of GT500 vs. Corvette.
This is where I’m unsure. There are a LOT of C5 owners which had corvettes, or C5 owners that sold their C5s for corvettes. There are also a number of people stating that they will have to decide between the ZL1 and the corvette. Your right, at ford, if you want a top performance car the GT500 is all you have, but the chevy fans will have to decide between the Zl1 and the Corvette. Once again, I’m not talking about the 70 year old corvette fan, or the 55 year old muscle car fan, I’m referring to GMs STATED targets for the corvette, which are YOUNGER buyers and INTERNATIONAL buyers. Both these two segments seem to be the types which ARE going to compare the ZL1 with the corvette, just like most the owners on this website that go back and foreth between the two tend to be 30-50 year old performance minded mid-price buyers (willing and able to spend 35-65 on a car)

Originally Posted by EVoLGRiMM

If they already compare the 500 to the GS why would the ZL1 made to destroy the 500 not be compared by the same people to the vette. I understand and agree about the ford crybabies trying to hold on to some kind of hope. Also R&T comparisons the stang somehow beats the bowtie 9/10 times by some technicality.

That's exactly what we will do. Compare the ZL1 to both the 500 and the Vette.

I think your exactly right. People WILL compare them whether you think people “should” or not doesn’t matter. I refuse to accept the argument however that the ZL1 will not influence perceptions of the corvette and vice versus… Almost anything GM opts to do is going to influence perceptions of their brands.

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Isn't the "Best Camaro Ever" and the "King Camaro" synonymous? It is to me...and perhaps that's a source of our debate, here....are we saying the same things?

When they propose a new car...when any company for that matter proposes a new product based on an existing one, it's usually supported in part by a dedication to make some more money off of it. Otherwise there has to be a DANG good PR reason to do it.

That is my argument.. If you are simply trying to make the best camaro ever, and the target market is camaro lovers who want the best, then you wouldn’t spend so much money on R&D developing attributes of the camaro that won’t help you tap that target market- instead you would do what would produce the greatest profits. Therefore the investment in the ZL1 development and production suggests that this clearly isn’t chevys prime target market, as there is no business reason to make what the original poster said was the “kind camaro” just for the sake of doing it… no, they would make a camaro just noticeably better than the current camaro with a high profit margin just to tap this market.


To make a quick note on the 500hp thing....they can't, and still keep the engine emissions-legal. If they could, you'd already see it in the GS Corvette...or model-year upgrades in the SS and standard Vette...

Valid, but make the same argument that they use the CTS-V engine but without the other major auto tweaks.


The most direct competition is the Mustang GT500. They are, however, seeming to target aspects of many entry-level supercars in the market...and with good reason. The GT500, though impressive, cannot make some of these claims with a straight face. The ZL1 can. And it's sorta like peer pressure....would you rather buy a car in the company of...itself? Or one that can nip the heels of some of the world's prestigious "supercars"?


I didn't propose that the target audience didn't care. So maybe this is another source of our debate here. I believe the Corvette and Camaro target very different groups of people. But I don't believe the ZL1 will only appeal to those with blinders on. It'll HAVE to compete. And it'll have to prove itself a value for the money customers will need to pay to drive away in one.

I think this is a simple case of me referencing the original responders argument vs. referencing your responses to the argument. I truly believe there are a number of target markets where the Camaro and Corvette will not compete, HOWEVER, GM has stated publicly that their goal for the 2013 corvette is to tap YOUNGER and INTERNATIONAL buyers who typically turn to European sports cars. If we look only at this target they stated, I would argue that the Camaro ZL1 and the Corvette WILL be in competition with each other in this market, UNLESS GM substantially improves the C7 product, separating it from the Camaro in terms of performance.


The main thing the ZL1 will have versus a Corvette is standard features. Compared to a 1LT (49k) Corvette...the Camaro is LOADED where the Corvette appears stripped. To get equivalent options you're looking at 58 big ones, at least, what with the suede seating, HUD, Dual-Mode Exhaust, and MR, to start....

The second thing that will separate buyers is the layout of the vehicle. The Camaro is much more comfortable to get in/out of...much more comfortable to drive (though I haven't been in the 2012 Vettes with the new seats, yet...)...and it has that added benefit of a private trunk and rear passenger seats. This aspect alone will split buyers very sharply...

I think you are completely accurate here, but this is comparison between the two products “well I want to performance but” or “this is better for me on the camaro and this is better for me on the corvette”. This is only going to happen if the prices are in the same ballpark, and that’s why I argue that GM won’t do that, pushing the price of the ZL1 DOWN and pushing the corvette UP. What if the ZL1 is 60k as some are predicting and the base corvette stays at 49k? Then you can have a corvette WITH all the options of the ZL for cheaper. This doesn’t make sense in their portfolio for the reasons you just stated. If it does come down to simply car layout, design, and looks, and the performance is a wash, then doesn’t that devalue the Corvette name? to get outshone by a factory camaro?


The third thing that the Camaro and Corvette find uncommon is their reputation. Think bar-brawler versus fencing champion...Some people will DIE to own a Corvette, at all costs. Others don't give a crap and just want to go fast. Don't underestimate a person's character in the buying process....

Once again, I think we are looking at this too broadly. That’s true of traditional corvette buyers, but that’s not what we are referencing- we are referencing GMs stated target markets with the new C7, which overlaps with the Zl1 targets.


Now...I'm not goofy enough to pretend there will be NO cross-shopping...it's bound to happen in some capacity or another. But I think it will be very rare compared to Fusion vs Malibu, or Camaro vs Mustang.

I hope I clarified what I was thinking better...there seems to have been some confusion earlier...

I would like to restate that you have many valid points. I think most of my areas for argument were related to posters comments that both of us were referring to, as opposed to referencing your statements specifically. I hope I was able to clarify here! Thanks for sharing your thoughts and ideas, I’m going to put more thought into the impacts of the car layouts, and I’m giving this to my students as an assignment this week… I won’t influence them at all, and I’ll post back up here with their case study analysis!

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by BumblebeeAmigo

I would like to restate that you have many valid points. I think most of my areas for argument were related to posters comments that both of us were referring to, as opposed to referencing your statements specifically. I hope I was able to clarify here! Thanks for sharing your thoughts and ideas, I’m going to put more thought into the impacts of the car layouts, and I’m giving this to my students as an assignment this week… I won’t influence them at all, and I’ll post back up here with their case study analysis!

Cool. Though I still maintain it'll be a small percentage...I wonder if any temporary Corvette overlap is considered "tolerable" until the C7 gets more expensive to make room for the ZL1/upper-echelon Camaro model...

Because think about it...if there's a GS Corvette with nearly all options available...why have a base model when the Camaro SS/ZL1 fills that gap?

[2cnd chance]

Strange thread???

[Arachnyd]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Cool. Though I still maintain it'll be a small percentage...I wonder if any temporary Corvette overlap is considered "tolerable" until the C7 gets more expensive to make room for the ZL1/upper-echelon Camaro model...

Because think about it...if there's a GS Corvette with nearly all options available...why have a base model when the Camaro SS/ZL1 fills that gap?

Exactly what I was thinking...