Blizzak on Rear only question

[Infopro]

My plan was to get 2 Blizzak 275/40 20's for the back of my 2010 Camaro this paycheck and get 2 more for the front in 2 weeks, next check. After pulling out of the car dealer thinking I was good to go, for now, I starting driving and immediately felt something very wrong. The car was all over the road like it was drunk.

Thinking that I'm mixing tires here and there's probably going to be some of this due to the tires, I kept driving. But the more I drove the more dangerous it felt. One swerve too much and this car was going to go into a slide or worse.

The tires had 36 lbs in them, I increased that to 40, didn't help. I increased it to 50, same thing.

Not just on the highway, but going less than 20 mph if you pulled the wheel to simulate swerving a pothole for example, the tire would make a noise like it was riding on the sidewall. Just like if you had a back tire low on air.

Next morning I took the car back and explained that it felt like the wheels were coming off. They checked the pressure, lug nuts all seemed fine to them. But, they did not test drive the car to see what I meant. They explained that I was mixing directional and non directional tires, which is sort of like radial and non radial mixing.

I understand this point I think, but what I don't understand is the nosediving at slow speed. The noise the tire makes when you hit a corner. Not driving fast, slowly thru a housing plan I was able to repeat the sound and feeling.

These tires just seem wrong somehow, and I'm not sure why. The dealer of course thinks I should get the other 2, put all four back on and thats that, I'll be good to go.

I'm not so sure about that so am trying to find out what I can on my own here. Hence this post.

My questions are:

1) With 4 proper sized blizzaks on your Camaro, does it act this way with the back tires or no? That feeling of nosediving to the side.

2) Is there another profile/type blizzak for this size that I didn't get that would not do this?

3) Has anyone here run just two blizzaks on the back, stock pzeros on front and felt this same thing?


Thanks in advance for any insight you can provide me.

[zogster]

The problem is that you are mixing and matching tires with different slip angles and tread patterns. If you put on four Blizzaks you will be fine. But mixing and matching tires is a big no-no.

[gammarho55]

i thought about doing the same thing. at 300/ tire, you have to break up that payment lol. now i know better... thanks for posting.

[philthy]

$300 per tire?! I paid just under $800 for a set of four mounted, balanced on alloy rims shipped from TireRack.com.

My set of four handles fine. A little less limble, but they are skinnier than the stock tires.

[zogster]

Originally Posted by philthy

$300 per tire?! I paid just under $800 for a set of four mounted, balanced on alloy rims shipped from TireRack.com.

My set of four handles fine. A little less limble, but they are skinnier than the stock tires.

You probably didn't get 20" tires though.

I got LS wheels for $250 shipped to my door and Blizzaks with a few hundred miles on them for $205 shipped to my door. Now I just have to get them mounted and I'm at about $520 probably

[Reloaded]

50 psi is wayyyyyyy to much... You are out of your mind, mixing tires and over filling them its not only unsafe is just plain dumb... Don't mean to be an ass, but i would not drive the car around with any of the conditions you stated above. You run the risk of a full blow-out or an uncontrollable car.

I'm not surprised the dealer did nothing for you, as a matter of fact im shocked they let you leave with the car like that. I wouldn't have test drove it either...

To answer your questions i have 4 blizzaks on 20.9" rims so they are the 275 40 20 i believe, and they are fine..

The profile of the blizzaks have nothing to do with this unless they are somehow too small for the rim, which if you purchased them from the dealer, i tend to dout.

Lastly, no other people dont do this because as you can see its extremely dumb to have a setup like this... Snow tires and summer tires are two very different types of wheels...

[Kabul SS]

Running only two snow tires on the rears is a little crazy. Beyond the two different tire trend issues if you hit any snow you'll have traction from the rears but the fronts steer and do most of the stopping and they won't do well in the snow unless you have snow tires up front. All thrust and no directional control or stopping is a bad combination. The money you save by skipping the front snow tires won't be worth it if you crash your car.

[sene]

Pirellis are summer tires and you are using your front wheels to steer.

[Infopro]

I had no intention of running just these two on back for winter, only for two weeks till I picked up the fronts. And I understand that the fronts are summer and won't do well in snow. And I understand 50 lbs is too much, although the max limit on the tires. I was trying firm them up a bit in doing so to get me home to pick up the originals to have them put back on and remove the blizzaks, for now.

My concern is the nosediving these tires do. I suppose I've have to have them installed all the way around and see how it goes. I just can't imagine that "diving" feeling changing much when the fronts are on as well.

And that's what I was looking for here I think.
a) Confirmation that the nosedive feeling won't be there with all four tires on.
b) If you were running this exact same setup original pzeros on front and new blizzaks in back, if your tires as well, would nosedive as described. Due to the tire mixing.

Thanks for your replies all.

[DG@WA]

Hello, everyone. I am the aforementioned “Dealer”, who installed the Blizzaks on Infopro's vehicle. I take every comeback very seriously, this particular one definitely has my attention, enough to create an account on this forum (a fantastic resource, by the way, kudos!). I have dedicated a great portion of the past 2 days to researching the issue at hand, including this site, all my tire distributor contacts and numerous third-party sources of information. Correct me if I'm wrong regarding any of the following, but here's what we came up with so far:


The problem: 2010 Camaro w/RS package exhibits odd driving dynamics after installing 2 snow tires on the rear axle, even at 15-20 mph in dry road conditions, with occasional rain, temperatures in the 50s/60s. Tires installed are Bridgestone Blizzak DM-V1 275/40R20, stock size. As Infopro noted, this was never intended to be a “done-deal”, merely a very temporary money-saving solution with the intent to purchase the front ones within a couple weeks. Customer has been around multiple vehicles in their lifetime and they most certainly understand the inevitable ensuing difference in handling and grip. However, the issue being so prominent at such low speeds and dry roads points us both in the direction that “something's not quite right”.


We decided to go with the Blizzak tires all around. While ordering the rear set, DM-V1 was the only Blizzak tire available in that size, without any usual explicit “application” red flags, preventing us from putting an incompatible tire on a vehicle. After the customer's complaint I started digging deep. Research revealed that DM-V1 seems to be often (but not always) listed as a “sport-suv” tire, which makes me believe that its sidewall may be more flexible than, say, Bridgestone's own LM- series tire, or a stock P-zero. Combined with diminished dry traction, we very well may end up with a rear-wheel drive vehicle, whose front end grips and stays put on dry roads far better than the rear end. Much to our dismay, information such as sidewall stiffness is not readily available at the tire-ordering process.


Problem #2: According to Bridgestone, there is no matching set of identical Blizzak tires for an RS application. 275/40R20 comes only in DM-V1. 245/45R20 comes only in LM-60. Huge difference in construction and sidewall flex, not something I would ever consider mixing.


Solution: As much as I respect Rudy@tirerack's thought to run 245's all around, as a dealer, I just... can't. Strictly for liability reasons we can not deviate from the vehicle's tire placard. I'm sure it would work just fine, better even, due to thinner rear tires having an easier time cutting through the snow. But I must stick to the numbers in the door jamb. Which leaves me with what seems to be the only option out there – Pirelli Scorpion Ice and Snow, available in both sizes needed, with excellent reviews.


Infopro, please give me a call so that we can discuss it in person. Everyone else, your input is very much appreciated.


Thank you,


DG

[Infopro]

That was very nice of you to come by here Dan, thanks, and welcome to these forums!

I've been thinking on this and staring at different tires for days now. What stands out to me is the tire tread edge itself. What I mean by that is, there's a hard edge on the blizzaks, and a rounded edge on the others. I'll attach a picture I took close up the day I had these put on at bottom of post.

I think, due to all the reasons mentioned so far, and this edge, when you simulate a swerve around a pothole, that hard edge rolls and creates the noise I would hear. Basically you drop off that edge too far. Even at 50 lbs pressure.

Once you have dropped off the edge of the tire it really goes out more than is safe.

I'm no tire expert, but I have always tried to purchase the best when it comes to what my wife of 30 years drives daily. I have never come into this sort of situation before either so am of course struggling here to understand it all. All I can come up with on my own is that edge.

Looking at this image up close it seems reasonable enough to me that once you get to (and over it?) that edge it might pull a bit more than some other tire similar.

That pull, that feeling was just to much to feel safe for me leave them on at all. I'm with you Dan, no blizzaks for me, not on this Camaro.

[zogster]

Go to tirerack.com

Enter 2010 Camaro LT RS as your vehicle. Select 17" packages. Select Blizzak WS70. Select moda EB1 for you wheel. For $908 plus shipping and about $200 if you want them mounted, balanced, and with TPMS installed from tirerack you have 4 wheels, 4 tires, and save your old wheels from the winter salt. So for about the same price as 4 20" tires you can have wheels and tires that will both be better in the snow and also save your 20" wheels. When it comes time to replace the tires you will have saved hundreds. $492 for 4 17" tires or $1200 for 4 20" tires in a few years.

Either go that route or find LS steel wheels for cheap (I got mine for $250 cheap) and search for tires. I found Blizzaks on eBay with just a few hundred miles that said they would only allow for pick up. I talked them into shipping them to me and paid $95 to get them here, so for my winter setup of LS steelies and slightly slightly used Blizzaks I paid $455, plus probably $60 to mount and balance.

At the very least the dealer should have no problem putting on the LS wheels and stock size snow tires (whatever comes stock on the LS). It's obviously a setup made for the Camaro even if ones with 20" wheels don't list it as the stock size. My dealer has no problem taking off our aftermarket wheels on our GTO and putting on stock wheels with winter tires. They aren't the same size wheel and thus not the same size tire as stock.

[rb]

Infopro and DG@WA,
I thought you guys might be interested to know that I have a 2011 SS with the Pirelli Scorpion Ice and Snow tires in the stock sizes (245/45-20 front and 275/40-20 rear) on a 2nd set of stock wheels. I just put them on last weekend so I haven't put very many miles on them yet. The weather here has been relatively warm and dry for these tires, (mid sixties for daytime highs) but so far they have been fine with no problems with handling or traction, either driving in town or on the highway. Definitely no scary moments. There really doesn't seem to be any signifiant difference in the feel and handling of the car under "normal" driving conditions. I'm sure they will not compare to the PZeros under "spirited" driving conditions in warm weather, but that's not the point of these tires.
Also, if you're like me, the look of your car is very important. I found the Scorpions look less like "snow tires" than the Blizzaks. To me, the Scorpions in the stock sizes look nearly identical to originals which is the look I prefer. The stock sizes might not have as good of traction in snow as the narrower tires, but I'm willing to sacrifice a little to keep the look I like.
Anyway, I hope this helps and best of luck!

[DG@WA]

Thank you for the replies, folks! I definitely appreciate everyone's input. I can see how the sharper sidewall edge may possibly contribute to altering the slip angle of a tire, compared to a stock one. Yet another reason (of many) to never ever mix and match. Infopro, let's chat at some point today about our options.

Thanks,

DG