GM Buying Back 200M Shares from Government

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Rhyder

GM does not have 100,000 employees, sorry stopped reading after that....

Oh, sorry didn't know we were going to the exact number.

What do you think it is?

It is just a bit south of 100,000 but too bad you quit reading.

Point was quite correct though.......................unless you think we ever had a military as large as 70 million.

When I grew up in Flint, there were 40,000 emplyees in Genesee County alone.

Also what everyone also forgets was the 1,000,000 retirees and spouses that were dependant on GM for penson and benefits. That impact would have been devastating as well.






Pssssst, you might want to check GM's global employment numbers. I'm guessing you were counting GMNA only.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

last i checked the Government has spent 16.3 Trillion it didn't have, but people only cry about certain things it was spent on. I'm not happy GM had to be bailed out, but how much has been wasted by the Defense Dept? among many other things.

Defense is a necessary government function. Bailing out irresponsible car companies is not.

[Rhyder]

I retract my statement, as said below it was not called for and flippant.


the beginning numbers for the bailout

The money the government spent adds up quickly: $50 billion in TARP bailout funds, a special exemption waiving payment of $45.4 billion in taxes on future profits, an exemption for all product liability on cars sold before the bailout, $360 million in stimulus funds, and the $7,500 tax credit for those who buy the Chevy Volt. GM’s share of other programs is harder to quantify but includes, for example, some of the $15.2 billion that went to Cash for Clunkers. The government sponsored (read payed for) 18 billion dollars of advertising to inform the public about the bailout and how it was a necessary move.

The exemption for all car liabilities before the bailout is the key, what that is is the government taking financial responsibility for all recalls, lawsuits etc etc, that is not quantifiable as they are still ongoing.

Also I don't have the figures on the credits claimed on the Leaf but I cant imagine that is a huge number, so we will let that go.

They were given a 6.7billion dollar loan just prior to this that they were not required to pay back. also a year after the bailout they were forgiven another 31.3 billion in export/import taxes as they were starting to flag again.


We are at 145 billion already..thats without the cash for clunkers or unfair market ploy of the Leaf credit..and we are still paying for it.....

Thats roughly 1,450,000 per person at 100000 (think it was 91k pre bailout) employees to keep them at work, not that there is near that many working for them currently, I think the last figure I saw was 48000 (we are only counting the actual GM employees not the dealerships since as GM repeatedly claims, they dont work for them) so in a way the bailout failed miserably at its proposed purpose, of keeping 100,000 people employed.

At 1,450,000 just to keep people employed, that's above and beyond salary, they could of trained every unemployed person in the US to get a quality job.....

The stock has dropped to less than half what it was worth right after bailout, so it failed to keep the company up in value.

basically every one of the proposed reasons for doing this bailout was a failure.....

you cant even use the reason that it kept the company around, there are several interested parties chomping at the bit to get into the US market, they would of had new management but they still would of been there......

[Angrybird 12]

FYI from CNN Money news

CEO: Daniel F. Akerson
Employees: 207,000
Address: 300 Renaissance Center
Detroit, Michigan 48265
Country: U.S.
Website: www.gm.com

A few more than 48,000 employees.

[Rhyder]

Originally Posted by Angrybird 12

FYI from CNN Money news


A few more than 48,000 employees.

holly cow, they doubled the work force of all other car companies combined? yet hold less than 15% of the market? must be nice to have endless money from the government you dont have to pay back........Thats bigger than ATT worldwide andeven Apple......

I think under Clinton when I got out the active military was only 220 thousand...200, 000 is amazing,

[sycraft]

Originally Posted by Angrybird 12

FYI from CNN Money news


A few more than 48,000 employees.

Not to mention the tens of thousands of unemployed dealer and supplier employees, would have caused a catatrophic financial meltdown.

[Rhyder]

Originally Posted by sycraft

Not to mention the tens of thousands of unemployed dealer and supplier employees, would have caused a catatrophic financial meltdown.

I covered that, the Chinese for one were wanting to step in and run it like it was, someone would of taken over, they would not of lost their jobs.....

[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by Rhyder

holly cow, they doubled the work force of all other car companies combined? yet hold less than 15% of the market? must be nice to have endless money from the government you dont have to pay back........Thats bigger than ATT worldwide andeven Apple......

I think under Clinton when I got out the active military was only 220 thousand...200, 000 is amazing,

I don't know where you get your numbers from but here is Fords from CNN Money. I sure these are all world wide employees.

CEO: Alan R. Mulally
Employees: 164,000
Address: 1 American Rd.
Dearborn, Michigan 48126
Country: U.S.
Website: www.ford.com

Here is Toyota's

CEO: Akio Toyoda
Employees: 317,716
Address: 1 Toyota-cho
Toyota 471-8571
Country: Japan
Website: www.toyota-global.com

[Angrybird 12]

These are the numbers for US employees.
From Cars.com

Detroit Three vs. Japanese Three: 181,000 to 67,000
Car dealerships and suppliers often sell cars or furnish parts for multiple automakers. Take them out of the equation, and Detroit automakers have the clear lead in direct employment — at assembly, drivetrain, stamping, casting and tooling plants, research and design facilities, U.S. headquarters, testing grounds and the like. GM spokesman Fred Ligouri says GM employs 77,000 Americans. Chrysler's U.S. employment totals 39,200. Ford declined to provide numbers, but the American Automotive Policy Council, a group that represents the Detroit Three, says the Dearborn, Mich., automaker employs about 65,000.
Combined, that's more than 2.5 times the number of employees that Toyota, Nissan and Honda – the three largest Japanese automakers in the U.S. — employ. Toyota spokeswoman Carly Schaffner says Toyota employs more than 30,000 Americans, up from 29,089 in 2011. Honda has "just north of 26,000" at its U.S. operations, says spokesman Ed Miller. Nissan's U.S. operations employ 10,380 across six states. Hyundai-Kia employs 7,800, according to two spokesmen for the Korean automaker.

[AZCamaroFan]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Defense is a necessary government function. Bailing out irresponsible car companies is not.

i hate to break it to you but there's a lot of waste there, and a lot of overcharging from contractors. perhaps you've never heard of the $ 9,000 toilets and $500 dollar hammers.

[Angrybird 12]

Nobody seems to mind buying from car companies subsidized by the Japanese Government but let the US government give a company tax breaks or money and all hell breaks loose.

From Bloomberg financial news:

Toyota Motor Corp. (7203) and Honda Motor Co. (7267) can thank government aid for helping auto industry sales grow faster in Japan than any major market this year. As state subsidies are about to run out, so may the euphoria.
Japan vehicle sales, after surging about 53 percent in the first seven months, will drop as much as 20 percent next quarter as the payouts expire, analysts at BNP Paribas SA and IHS Automotive said. Toyota is counting on a cheaper version of the Prius hybrid to sustain demand, while Nissan Motor Co. (7201) has said it will offer support to dealers.
About 88 percent of the 300 billion yen ($3.8 billion) budgeted for subsidies has been consumed as buyers snapped up cars, underpinning an economic recovery that economists now forecast will fade. The end of state aid of as much as 100,000 yen per vehicle will be compounded by the government’s plan to double the national consumption tax, prompting additional calls from carmakers for stimulus measures.
“The government will have to come up with ways to offset the negative impact of the consumption tax increase,” said Yoshiaki Kawano, an analyst at IHS Automotive in Tokyo. Should the subsidies end by next month, sales in the three months starting Oct. 1 will drop as much as 20 percent, he said.
History shows carmakers have reason to worry.
After a government rebate ended in September 2010, vehicle deliveries plunged 29 percent in the following quarter, according to the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association. In the year ended March 1998, domestic deliveries dropped 14 percent after the nation’s sales tax was increased 2 percentage points to 5 percent in 1997.
Count Nobuhiro Miyazaki, manager of a Toyota dealership in central Tokyo, among those concerned.
“Sales are going to plunge for sure,” Miyazaki said. “We’re very worried that demand may fall as badly as two years ago when the last subsidies were used up.”
About 37 billion yen remained in the country’s auto-subsidy fund as of Aug. 14, according to the website set up by the agency in charge of the payments. The program started giving rebates for energy-efficient vehicles from Dec. 20, and the portion set aside for heavier trucks and commercial vehicles ran out early July.
In addition to calling for extended government support for sales, Japan’s biggest carmakers plan to rely on new models and customer support programs to draw buyers.
Toyota has introduced the lower-priced Aqua hybrid compact -- known as the Prius c in the U.S. -- along with some other models to help drive sales, said Joichi Tachikawa, a spokesman for the Toyota City, Japan-based company.
Japan accounted for about 27 percent of Toyota’s first-half sales, based on data compiled by Bloomberg and JAMA. That means a 20 percent drop in demand in the home market would reduce deliveries by about 5.4 percent. Growth in other countries, including the U.S., will probably enable Toyota to stay No. 1 in global sales, ahead of General Motors Co. (GM) and Volkswagen AG. (VOW)
“It would take some kind of pretty major development to knock them off course at this point,” said Kevin Tynan, automotive analyst for Bloomberg Industries in New York. “In the U.S. Toyota is still turning product very quickly, and it gives them enough room to grow sales. They are largely protected from the downturn in Europe, which is going to hinder GM, Ford and VW going forward, and they are doing well in emerging markets. This gives them an advantage in the global race.”
Toyota raised its forecast for full-year sales this month, saying deliveries may rise 23 percent to a record 9.76 million. Along with growth in China and Brazil, Toyota is doing well in Thailand, Indonesia and Middle East, said Efraim Levy, an equity analyst with Standard & Poor’s Capital IQ in New York.
“Slowing in Japan will be more than offset by growth in those markets,” said Levy, who upgraded Toyota’s American depositary receipts to buy on Aug. 17.
For Honda and Nissan -- which made 22 percent and 16 percent of their first-half sales in Japan -- a 20 percent drop in domestic sales would lower deliveries by 4.4 percent and 3.2 percent, respectively.
Honda’s introduction of vehicles including the new N-box minicar will help support sales after subsidies end, and no incentives or discounts are planned, Akemi Ando, a spokeswoman for the carmaker, said by telephone.
Nissan will offer support on a model-by-model basis at the dealer level, including price cuts on car navigation systems, said Chris Keeffe, a spokesman for the company. He declined to elaborate on other aid the automaker will offer dealers.
Nissan has repeatedly called on the government to extend subsidies and is introducing the new Note compact and the Serena S-hybrid minivan to spur demand.
“This Japanese market needs stimulus to continue to grow and compete on the world stage,” Andy Palmer, executive vice president at Nissan, told reporters in Yokohama, Japan, at a July 17 event to introduce the new Note. “We sincerely hope those kind of incentives will be continuing.”
Toyota and Honda are trading at the highest price compared with earnings among 14 peers in the industry, at about 36 and 23 respectively, data compiled by Bloomberg shows. Nissan’s ratio is 9.7, still higher than Ford Motor Co.’s 7.8 and Detroit-based GM’s 7.4.
Government payments have helped make Toyota’s Prius and Tokyo-based Honda’s Fit the nation’s best-selling cars. Toyota sold 215,028 units of Prius from January to July, about twice that sold a year earlier. Fit deliveries rose 44 percent to 157,498.
Norio Miyagawa, an economist at Mizuho Securities Research in Tokyo, said the looming slump in car sales may extend to the broader economy.
“Car sales supported gains in durable goods in the second quarter, but overall consumption was dull,” Miyagawa said. “Consumer spending may decline in the fourth quarter as the boosts from the government’s incentives will peter out.”
Japan’s mounting government debt, the world’s largest, is also prompting concern payouts like subsidies for car buyers won’t be renewed.
A new round of vehicle subsidies isn’t likely to be introduced soon, Yuuki Sakurai, chief executive officer of Fukoku Capital Management Inc. in Tokyo, said by phone. The payouts may be revived eventually to offset the negative effect of legislation approved by Japan’s parliament to increase consumption taxes, he said.
Japan’s auto association and other industrial groups have also called for the end of two other levies on vehicles to boost domestic demand as the strength of the yen makes exports less profitable. Japanese car buyers pay as many as nine taxes to own a car, including an acquisition tax and a so-called weight tax.
Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda’s plan to double the consumption tax to 10 percent in 2015, after an interim increase to 8 percent in 2014, was approved in the nation’s parliament earlier this month.
“While we are grateful to have subsidies as short-term solutions, we need fundamental reviews of the taxes on cars,” Akio Toyoda, Toyota president and JAMA chairman, said July 19. “We hope the government can work to reform the taxation in a timely manner.”
Nissan Chief Operating Officer Toshiyuki Shiga said earlier this month that he believes the government will have to scrap or reduce the vehicle purchase tax before the sales tax is actually raised so that domestic sales will not be eroded.

[sycraft]

I know car makers are a global business, but I still prefer to buy my vehicles from companies that started in the US, GM, Ford and Chrysler are my top. I still want to support the original companies that helped make out country stong in the beginning, I still believe that the foreign influence has weakened our economy. Flame on for me being a pro american company supporter.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by sycraft

Flame on for me being a pro american company supporter.

No fames from here. As far as I'm concerned - this is as good a reason as any...and better than some...for choosing where to spend one's money.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by sycraft

I know car makers are a global business, but I still prefer to buy my vehicles from companies that started in the US, GM, Ford and Chrysler are my top. I still want to support the original companies that helped make out country stong in the beginning, I still believe that the foreign influence has weakened our economy. Flame on for me being a pro american company supporter.

No Flames here either.............keep in mind Chrysler is NOT a US company any more. Fiat owns a good chunk of them.