2014 Camaro Z/28 pricing announced at $75,000

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

I agree and wish, that GM had simply upped the present ZL1 power 10-15 % (a la ZR1, or Hennessey), got much cheaper but very capable lightweight 2 piece rotors (a la C7), put the Pirellis on, pulled more extra weight off, added some aero and called it a Z28. It would surely be faster then the present Z28 and much cheaper. And nobody would complain that the "goods don't justify the price", or "their favourite ice cream costs 9.99" to quote a couple of colourful responses. And so many more could afford it and enjoy it for the purpose it was created: track not collectors garage museums.

This would not be a track car in my opinion. Gotta be N/A.

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

the first one didn't target a limited audience. by the third year they sold around 20,000 of them.

by the way here's some good history on how the Z/28 began for those who don't know it.
www.67z28.com/history.htm

Actually in 1967 they did kinda limit the Z/28. How? By not marketing it much at all. They really wanted track guys to buy them.

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Agree that officially this will be the fastest "factory" Camaro, according to the order sheet anyway.

But, will it be the fastest Camaro that can be purchased directly from GM? Well, if somebody puts both cars on the same rubber and Z28 beats the ZL1 fair and square, I will admit: it is the fastest factory Camaro. But not until then.

All the track comparisons between the 2 cars (Milford 2.87 seconds, Nurburgring est 10 seconds) have been heralded loudly, except for one important point: the tires.
In effect, ZL1 brought a knife to a gun fight. Tires are always a key factor at any track "game" and even in pro racing, there is a level playing field. But not here, unfortunately.

The "factory" makes the car, but they don't make the tires. Plus the tires are "consumables" especially on a track car. Besides I am sure a GM dealer will be delighted to take my money and sell me Z28 rims with Pirellis on them. I would expect the same response for those nice Recaro seats.

So technically, I could purchase a ZL1 (possible for $48,250, as a friend just got one), add the rims (est $6,000?) plus the seats (est $2,000?) and have the (possibly)fastest Camaro, directly from GM for $56,250. But let's round it up to $60,000 to be certain I am not sand-bagging my own expectations. As a value added bonus, we have gained some weight reductions: let's assume 100lb all in, which will make it even faster. Plus I still have an AC and stereo, fog lamps and other bits that got deleted from the Z28.

These simple and readily available enhancements could make the ZL1 if not actually faster, then likely as fast as the Z28 on a road course, straight from a GM dealership. And of course I am saving at least $15,000 (more if I shop aftermarket). This would also include already having a spare set of (original) rims and street tires to store the car on in winter (a necessity for any future Z28 owner living in a 4 seasons climate). Chock the savings up by another 2 or 3 grand minimum. Hence the current offer makes no sense to me.

The weight will be your biggest issue. It affects braking. It affects coming out of a corner. The higher COG will be a negative. The consistency will fade faster in the ZL1. The softer tires will degrade faster. And where are you saving 100 lbs?
Yeah I agree the Z/28 is wayyyy more than most wanted, however it's awesome they did it. And they should be applauded.

[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by the_fast_one

It's the internet so don't believe everything I read but
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wixom...e_Build_Center

That's the plant that's closing. Per previous post by B-A-C it's moving to Bowling Green Ky.

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by EnlighteningYou

The z/28 doesn't have magnetic suspension either, something that was touted as the best most advanced suspension on earth, why doesn't the Z/28 have it? Is the Z/28's non magnetic suspension better?

The DSSV's are exactly what you want for this purpose.

[the_fast_one]

Originally Posted by Angrybird 12

That's the plant that's closing. Per previous post by B-A-C it's moving to Bowling Green Ky.

Yeah it states that is being moved to BG under the history part. Supposed to start sometime in the first quarter of this year.

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

What's exotic about an 8 year old z06 motor that makes less power then what's in the zl1? Also, exotic does not mean better or faster but always means MORE EXPENSIVE! I see no benefit in exotic whatoever if it reduces a z28 to 1500 copies, 36% price premium over zl1 and if not for the uber tires, not much (if any) performance edge.

Obviously you don't get it or want it so move on. We've given counter-arguments, however you poo-poo them, so why should we continue listening to your "same" arguments? If you want to build your ZL1 do it! I'd iove to see what it can do.

[Bad@ssCamaro]

Originally Posted by Angrybird 12

That's the plant that's closing. Per previous post by B-A-C it's moving to Bowling Green Ky.

Also mentioned on the first page of this thread. Seems nobody picked up on it.

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by shawn18

^^ I couldn't have said it better. The reasons listed above are a lot of the problems I have had with this car and the price. It just doesn't make sense to me to price it so high and claim all of these measures have been made to make it , lighter,and faster. When in fact it hasn't been properly compared to ZL1. In which it may not be faster than or not by much on equal footing. To me there are just a lot of things that just doesn't make sense to me about this whole car.

And that's why the 1LE is the Camaro for you.

[Todd in Vancouver]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Brand new 2014 off the lot 2 weeks b4 Xmas - I know a rare find but they are there Sorry I may have screwed up my replies re the Z06 motor LOL!
Motor heat soak - got it! Interesting as I haven't heard it from the ZR1 guys.
Thx for the info - appreciate it.

Ya, that's a real issue. On a cold damp morning the S/C monster screams fire and the earth shakes. Hot and heat soaked, um, not so much. In a long race it is an issue in its stock configuration.

Originally Posted by Bad@ssCamaro

Where are you getting this? GM's goal is to be able to keep up with the GT2's and GT3's, nothing about "blowing them away"...maybe a an older Boss302 or Challenger

This is the hard part to get our head around, in the way that half a second is a lot and 3+ seconds is complete "blown away". Check Top Gear UK and the time difference from 2/3's up the Stig's chart to the top. Not a big time span but a 0.1 means a lot. Not my rules, it's just the way it is.

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

FYI, My quote as you mentioned also includes another forum members post.

I do agree with the expectations not being fulfilled by the many. I've even mentioned before that the Z/28 far exceeded my own. I believe this new Z/28 should be named "Z/28-R" as it fulfills that IMO. And I do agree with your final comment.

This makes the most sense. But, we would have deprived ourselves of millions of useless internet debating and arguments and what's the fun in that.

[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by Bad@ssCamaro

Also mentioned on the first page of this thread. Seems nobody picked up on it.

Guess so, I know I haven't seen every post...

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by gto406

My original statement " I don't think GM ever viewed the ZL1 to be a corner bender, it was to be an all-out street/strip car during the 'muscle-car wars'." should likely have read:

"I don't think GM ever viewed the original 1969 ZL1 to be a corner bender, it was to be an all-out street/strip car during the 'muscle-car wars' of the late 1960's and the early 1970's."

I would check around some of the muscle-car sites on the original ZL1. While the 1969 ZL1 had the F41 heavy-duty suspension, their intended purpose was for NHRA drag racing. Indeed, I would say that the 69 ZL1's that were built likely ended up in the hands of drag-racers (e.g. guys like Bill 'Grumpy' Jenkins).

It is possible some of them ended up in road-race applications, but likely would have required a rear-axle ratio change.

I would also note the 1969 Z-28 had the JL8 option which enabled someone to order a 1969 Z-28 with 4-wheel disc brakes. I am not certain how many ZL1's had this option (or whether you could even order it on the ZL1).

Cheers,
Brian.

My first and continued post were all based on the Double-COPO. Thanks, but I don't need to check around, as I've lived this stuff for too many years.

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by gto406

My original statement " I don't think GM ever viewed the ZL1 to be a corner bender, it was to be an all-out street/strip car during the 'muscle-car wars'." should likely have read:

"I don't think GM ever viewed the original 1969 ZL1 to be a corner bender, it was to be an all-out street/strip car during the 'muscle-car wars' of the late 1960's and the early 1970's."

I would check around some of the muscle-car sites on the original ZL1. While the 1969 ZL1 had the F41 heavy-duty suspension, their intended purpose was for NHRA drag racing. Indeed, I would say that the 69 ZL1's that were built likely ended up in the hands of drag-racers (e.g. guys like Bill 'Grumpy' Jenkins).

It is possible some of them ended up in road-race applications, but likely would have required a rear-axle ratio change.

I would also note the 1969 Z-28 had the JL8 option which enabled someone to order a 1969 Z-28 with 4-wheel disc brakes. I am not certain how many ZL1's had this option (or whether you could even order it on the ZL1).

Cheers,
Brian.

Careful with your history and interpretation of the '69 ZL1.

1) F41 was NOT standard on the COPOs, either number. As you suggest, the 1st 50 ordered by Gibb/Harrell were intended for drag racing. But the Sports Conversion Package, COPO 9737, was created initially for the Yenko Camaros (all of them were iron block 427s, COPO 9561s). It's availability on the ZL1 engine cars would, for all intents and purposes, have turned then into 430+ hp Z/28s as they shared a similar Curb Weight. Exactly TWO were ordered that way.

2) JL8 - 4WDB were NOT available on the COPOs, not because of the COPO's intended mission but because they physically wouldn't fit the Code "BE" HD 12-bolt rear diff. that both COPO 9560 and -61 came with.

3) The ZL1 427, with a 4.25" bore, all-aluminum engine shared almost nothing with the much larger 4.44" bore of the Can Am-based engines. In their smallest GM form, the Can Am engines displaced 430 cubic inches, while the Can Am cars of McLaren, Hall et al typically displaced 494 cubic inches, courtesy of a stroker crank. Can Am engines were only available from GM in parts. There was no crate engine/pre-assembled program for that engine.

4) Grumpy's ZL1 SS/C racer, and the match race/Pro Stock car it evolved into, was in fact a converted smaller-engine SS and NOT a COPO car, although his sponsoring dealer Ammon R. Smith did sell two ZL1 COPO Camaros. da Grump, Booth-Arons, and Lance Hill of Toronto, were possibly the only Pro Stock racers to enjoy any success with the big bore aluminum Can Am blocks. The others used cast iron blocks, predominantly.

[Bad@ssCamaro]

Originally Posted by Angrybird 12

Guess so, I know I haven't seen every post...

It was in Fbodfather's post the first one.

[2cnd chance]

[QUOTE=TrackClub;7318910]

Originally Posted by Todd in Vancouver

Totally agree with you on the comparison and that the tires need to be the same for a fair race. But, they've made this the flagship Camaro so I really don't believe they will have engineered the Z28 slower than the ZL. I am also bias as I have a ZL but remember the Z28 track day was also wet so that beast is probably good for another 3-4 seconds off that time yet. You still don't have the CF brakes, extra ground effects, dry sump. When all is said and done you are going to be knocking on that $75K door. And don't forget a hand built 427 that has got to be in the $15K range.



Maybe not a bargain but it would be really tough to duplicate all the features of this car for that price. Yes you are right if we look at the history of the Z28 the current 1LE is probably really close to what the Z28 traditionally has been. But at the end of the day the 1LE is an awesome, affordable, track able car. Let the Z28 be the super track hero we want to have to kick the competitions butt.


When comparing the Ring time I've already adjusted the time from actual 4 seconds to 10 based on the dry track estimate for the z28 run. Not my estimate BTW. My whole point is that a ZL1 on Pirellis will kick ass equally well for 18Gs less. And if you can find one discounted like my friend did for 48 then a lot less than 18. Maybe that the car may not be duplicated for less, but why build one that doesn't clearly blow ZL1 away on track? Remember, this car is supposed to "blow much more expensive cars to kingdom-come". Will it blow away a cheaper ZL1? That's an 18 Gs question....

The ZL1 with the Trofeos will get closer to the Z/28 on the Ring, however as more laps are made it will fall off, why? The tires will go away faster on the heavier ZL1 with it's higher COG also negatively affecting it.

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Brand new 2014 off the lot 2 weeks b4 Xmas - I know a rare find but they are there Sorry I may have screwed up my replies re the Z06 motor LOL!
Motor heat soak - got it! Interesting as I haven't heard it from the ZR1 guys.
Thx for the info - appreciate it.

Regarding the LS7, the Z07 was almost as fast as the ZR1 around the Ring with far less HP. Hmmmmmm?