Nitrogen or Air?

[Gotthat02fire]

Helium so if you have a flat hopefully just enough air left to make you sound funny!!!!!!!!!

[Mr_Draco]

Originally Posted by PQ

Attachment 126318 Impressive.





But let's get serious. Those blue valve stem caps are just UGLY!!!!!! lmao

lmao.

Yes I am a little geeky . I've gone over this before with quite a few people and have done my research. Now if offered it for free, I won't turn it down but I won't pay for it.

[PQ]

Originally Posted by Mr_Draco

lmao.

Yes I am a little geeky . I've gone over this before with quite a few people and have done my research. Now if offered it for free, I won't turn it down but I won't pay for it.

OH. I loved it. I'll be refering to the info in the future.

[tradosaurus]

Gas law, PV = nRT for you nerds out there.

[UsedTaHaveA68]

Originally Posted by Mungo

I have nitrogen and won't go back to air for several reasons
1. Does not expand or contract as much as air.

Yes it does. They want you to believe that Nitrogen is somehow more "pressure-stable" (for lack of better term). The nitrogen itself has NOTHING to do with it. The small amount of water vapor in the air is what contracts/expands more with changes in temperature. If you use a dryer with your compressor you'll get the same effect, since Nitrogen is usually free of water vapor. Also, the relatively small temperature changes your tires see will not show a significant difference between Nitrogen and standard compressed air.

2. Nitrogen molecules are bigger than air so you will not lose pressure as fast.

Ok, this is a little bit believable. Nitrogen and Oxygen are both diatomic molecules (2 atoms per molecule), and even though the atomic size of oxygen is a little bigger, nitrogen his held together with a triple bond, effectively holding the atoms closer together. This source, http://www.getnitrogen.org/pdf/graham.pdf claims that O2 permeates through rubber 3-4 times faster than Nitrogen. Ok, well there's still ~80% Nitrogen in the air, so less than 1/5th (20%) of the total volume of the air in your tires is leaking out that fast. The other molecules (CO2, water vapor, radon, etc) are much larger than Nitrogen, and will leak out even slower. So basically you have to ask yourself is that $40 worth only having to check your tire pressure every 2 months instead of 1 month and 3 weeks. Even though you should be checking at every fill up.

3. I and my wife have noticed a smoother ride since switching to nitrogen.

As someone else stated here, it's called placebo effect. You may state that Nitrogen is lighter than air, so that's what makes the difference. Not really. 1 mole of Nitrogen molecules (6.023x10^23) weighs 28 grams. The same number of Oxygen molecules weighs 32 grams. At STP (Standard Temperature and Pressure) 1 mole of a gas will occupy 22.4L of volume. I don't know how much volume it takes to fill one of your tires, but let's say it's 44.8L just to keep this simple. Using the ideal gas law that tradosaurus listed below, you'll see that the weight of the air vs the weight of the Nitrogen in your tires will be a difference measured in grams. Not enough to make a difference in ANYTHING.

4. Nitrogen contains no moisture so the inside of the tire won't rot like they do with air.

I think PQ was the one that said your tires won't be on your car long enough to rot. Besides, there's water vapor on the OUTSIDE of your tires, and I don't see many people rolling around with their tires rotting off from the outside. The only difference this might make is if you have old, unpainted steel wheels on your car it could cause them to corrode faster. Even then, they're not going to turn to dust or anything.

I paid $49.00 for four tires at the dealer and when ever I need a top off at oil change time he does it for free. And by the way nitrogen is lighter than air and my gas milage went up by 4 MPG. Ask a reputable tire shop for their opinion. These are my reasons.

You said on a long road trip the only difference was the nitrogen in your tires and you MPG went up. Surely there were more variables than just that. If not done in a controlled environment, those conclusions are pretty much null and void.

Originally Posted by tradosaurus

Gas law, PV = nRT for you nerds out there.

I'm glad someone else remembers this. This equation shows you that pressure change is COMPLETELY INDIFFERENT to the type of gas being used as temperature increases/decreases.

Verdict: Nitrogen is a waste of $40

[VRMMMM]

Originally Posted by Mr_Draco

Sorry but this is all and is all uninformed propaganda. As posted up above, compressed air contains between 75-80% nitrogen.

There have been multiple tests and studies proving that there is NO gains over regular compressed air under NORMAL driving conditions.

- Nitrogen will still expand between 4-6 psi under normal driving conditions. Only under extreme circumstances (such as the extreme cold tires in jets experience and the extreme heat race cars put their tires though) is there any noticeable difference in the psi levels between compressed air and 100% nitrogen.

- Pressure loss from a puncture in the tire is nearly identical to that as it is with compressed air. Using 100% nitrogen will not reduce the rate at which you get a flat.

- Introducing the placebo effect. You was told that you will experience a smoother ride so therefore you think you experience a smoother ride. Unfortunately in the real world there is no ride difference between nitrogen and compressed air. Actually if anything it should be the opposite. As you said yourself, nitrogen is larger in size as such there is less room for the nitrogen to move around. This creates less give in the tires making the ride stiffer and harsher, not smoother.

- The inside of a tire will NEVER rot under normal circumstances. The outside of the tire will always rot before the inside. If you have a tire failure because the inside rotted, then you have larger issues.

- Yes nitrogen is lighter then air HOWEVER the same does not hold true when in a tire. The weight of the tire only varies by a couple ounces. Do you really think a couple quarters per tire will make that much of a difference on MPG? No it doesn't. The tests that showed a MPG difference in a controlled environment showed a 1-2% increase. On a 20MPG car that's a difference between .2-.4 MPG. Well within the margin of error of the computer.

Thank you sir, you just saved me some $

[Nine Ball]

Originally Posted by Mr_Draco

Sorry but this is all and is all uninformed propaganda. As posted up above, compressed air contains between 75-80% nitrogen.

There have been multiple tests and studies proving that there is NO gains over regular compressed air under NORMAL driving conditions.

- Nitrogen will still expand between 4-6 psi under normal driving conditions. Only under extreme circumstances (such as the extreme cold tires in jets experience and the extreme heat race cars put their tires though) is there any noticeable difference in the psi levels between compressed air and 100% nitrogen.

- Pressure loss from a puncture in the tire is nearly identical to that as it is with compressed air. Using 100% nitrogen will not reduce the rate at which you get a flat.

- Introducing the placebo effect. You was told that you will experience a smoother ride so therefore you think you experience a smoother ride. Unfortunately in the real world there is no ride difference between nitrogen and compressed air. Actually if anything it should be the opposite. As you said yourself, nitrogen is larger in size as such there is less room for the nitrogen to move around. This creates less give in the tires making the ride stiffer and harsher, not smoother.

- The inside of a tire will NEVER rot under normal circumstances. The outside of the tire will always rot before the inside. If you have a tire failure because the inside rotted, then you have larger issues.

- Yes nitrogen is lighter then air HOWEVER the same does not hold true when in a tire. The weight of the tire only varies by a couple ounces. Do you really think a couple quarters per tire will make that much of a difference on MPG? No it doesn't. The tests that showed a MPG difference in a controlled environment showed a 1-2% increase. On a 20MPG car that's a difference between .2-.4 MPG. Well within the margin of error of the computer.

Best response here. Nitrogen refills are a hoax. I'm just fine with my free 80% Nitrogen - aka "air".

[Rogue Leader]

Originally Posted by Mr_Draco

Sorry but this is all and is all uninformed propaganda. As posted up above, compressed air contains between 75-80% nitrogen.

There have been multiple tests and studies proving that there is NO gains over regular compressed air under NORMAL driving conditions.

- Nitrogen will still expand between 4-6 psi under normal driving conditions. Only under extreme circumstances (such as the extreme cold tires in jets experience and the extreme heat race cars put their tires though) is there any noticeable difference in the psi levels between compressed air and 100% nitrogen.

- Pressure loss from a puncture in the tire is nearly identical to that as it is with compressed air. Using 100% nitrogen will not reduce the rate at which you get a flat.

- Introducing the placebo effect. You was told that you will experience a smoother ride so therefore you think you experience a smoother ride. Unfortunately in the real world there is no ride difference between nitrogen and compressed air. Actually if anything it should be the opposite. As you said yourself, nitrogen is larger in size as such there is less room for the nitrogen to move around. This creates less give in the tires making the ride stiffer and harsher, not smoother.

- The inside of a tire will NEVER rot under normal circumstances. The outside of the tire will always rot before the inside. If you have a tire failure because the inside rotted, then you have larger issues.

- Yes nitrogen is lighter then air HOWEVER the same does not hold true when in a tire. The weight of the tire only varies by a couple ounces. Do you really think a couple quarters per tire will make that much of a difference on MPG? No it doesn't. The tests that showed a MPG difference in a controlled environment showed a 1-2% increase. On a 20MPG car that's a difference between .2-.4 MPG. Well within the margin of error of the computer.

THIS

Originally Posted by UsedTaHaveA68

Yes it does. They want you to believe that Nitrogen is somehow more "pressure-stable" (for lack of better term). The nitrogen itself has NOTHING to do with it. The small amount of water vapor in the air is what contracts/expands more with changes in temperature. If you use a dryer with your compressor you'll get the same effect, since Nitrogen is usually free of water vapor. Also, the relatively small temperature changes your tires see will not show a significant difference between Nitrogen and standard compressed air.



Ok, this is a little bit believable. Nitrogen and Oxygen are both diatomic molecules (2 atoms per molecule), and even though the atomic size of oxygen is a little bigger, nitrogen his held together with a triple bond, effectively holding the atoms closer together. This source, http://www.getnitrogen.org/pdf/graham.pdf claims that O2 permeates through rubber 3-4 times faster than Nitrogen. Ok, well there's still ~80% Nitrogen in the air, so less than 1/5th (20%) of the total volume of the air in your tires is leaking out that fast. The other molecules (CO2, water vapor, radon, etc) are much larger than Nitrogen, and will leak out even slower. So basically you have to ask yourself is that $40 worth only having to check your tire pressure every 2 months instead of 1 month and 3 weeks. Even though you should be checking at every fill up.



As someone else stated here, it's called placebo effect. You may state that Nitrogen is lighter than air, so that's what makes the difference. Not really. 1 mole of Nitrogen molecules (6.023x10^23) weighs 28 grams. The same number of Oxygen molecules weighs 32 grams. At STP (Standard Temperature and Pressure) 1 mole of a gas will occupy 22.4L of volume. I don't know how much volume it takes to fill one of your tires, but let's say it's 44.8L just to keep this simple. Using the ideal gas law that tradosaurus listed below, you'll see that the weight of the air vs the weight of the Nitrogen in your tires will be a difference measured in grams. Not enough to make a difference in ANYTHING.



I think PQ was the one that said your tires won't be on your car long enough to rot. Besides, there's water vapor on the OUTSIDE of your tires, and I don't see many people rolling around with their tires rotting off from the outside. The only difference this might make is if you have old, unpainted steel wheels on your car it could cause them to corrode faster. Even then, they're not going to turn to dust or anything.



You said on a long road trip the only difference was the nitrogen in your tires and you MPG went up. Surely there were more variables than just that. If not done in a controlled environment, those conclusions are pretty much null and void.



I'm glad someone else remembers this. This equation shows you that pressure change is COMPLETELY INDIFFERENT to the type of gas being used as temperature increases/decreases.

Verdict: Nitrogen is a waste of $40

And THIS

nuff said

/thread

[Jason@JacFab]

I'm told that tire shops, and other places will put green valve stem caps on your car to signal you have nitrogen inflated tires... My car has green caps on it, but I can't confirm or deny or confirm they're nitrogen filled.

The pressure fluctuates about 6 psi when cold, and after driving for a while...

Most places around here charge $5 a tire to fill with nitrogen.

I say it's a waste of money, especially if you plan to go to the drag strip and you need to let your nitrogen out of your rear tires.

[Mr Twisty]

Unless they draw a vacuum first, which would potentially damage the tire, you're still not getting 100% nitrogen.

[MrGazinya]

Originally Posted by MisterCamaro69

Unless they draw a vacuum first, which would potentially damage the tire, you're still not getting 100% nitrogen.

I bet your in the HVAC or refrigeration profession aren't you

[Nine Ball]

Originally Posted by MisterCamaro69

Unless they draw a vacuum first, which would potentially damage the tire, you're still not getting 100% nitrogen.

Excellent point.

[PQ]

Originally Posted by MisterCamaro69

Unless they draw a vacuum first, which would potentially damage the tire, you're still not getting 100% nitrogen.

Well. You could take the tires into a nitrogene filled environment and do it that way.

[efpardo]

There's a lot of information on the net about Air vs. Nitrogen. Bottom line, ether way, you should be checking tire pressure periodically. Nitrogen may have some advantages but probably not worth the expense if you are maintaining your tires properly anyway. On the other hand, if you can get nitrogen for free, go for it.
Should I use nitrogen in my car tires?
Inflating car tires: Air or nitrogen?
Is it better to fill your tires with nitrogen instead of air?