Camaro VS Mustang Mega Thread

[thePill]

Actually, it looks like a pain in the ass to use forced induction.

7-6 Turbocharging/Supercharging –
7-6.1 All forced induction vehicles will be assessed an additional fee when registering for the season. This is to offset the cost for data collection equipment for these cars. Forced induction teams will also be required to purchase (from GRAND-AM) and install the following sensors:
ST453 Boost sensor with DSP ST543 IR Lap Time Rx
The boost sensor may be collected by GRAND-AM at any time to verify calibration and accuracy. Replacement for sensors damaged in use will be the responsibility of the team.
The data acquisition modules will be randomly assigned by GRAND-AM. Only a GRAND-AM official may access the information on the unit. These units must be returned to at the conclusion of each event.
7-6.2 Teams must install a 1/8 NPT (female) port directly in the intake plenum. This location must be approved by the GRAND-AM Technical Manager.
7-6.3 Teams will be required to purchase and properly install the harness and mounting system provided by GRAND-AM. Teams will provide the necessary information and access for GRAND-AM to design the wiring harness including providing taps and connectors for non-driven wheel speed sensor, (Note: All-wheel drive cars will have the position of the wheel speed sensor determined by the Technical Manager), RPM feed, independent intake manifold pressure sensor, lap time trigger beacon, and throttle position sensor (Note: An existing 0-5V sensor is acceptable for TPS, otherwise one will need to be installed by the team).
This harness must remain unmodified and unaltered in any way. Any repairs must be completed under the direct supervision of a GRAND-AM official. GRAND-AM may require replacement rather than authorizing any repair or addition.
7-6.4 All eligible turbocharged/supercharged cars must compete using the standard OEM production intake and exhaust system excluding the catalytic converters and mufflers.
Once removed, a replacement pipe of the OEM diameter must be installed in place of the
catalytic converters and mufflers.
7-6.5 Cars will be required to use a GRAND-AM-supplied data logger and/or provide access to their
data logger (if used).
7-6.6 Supercharged cars must use OEM pulleys
7-6.7 Any device that controls boost levels other than the production parts are not permitted unless
mandated by GRAND-AM.
7-6.8 GRAND-AM may mandate a mechanical boost control.
7-6.9 GRAND-AM may establish alternate boost parameters for turbocharged and supercharged
cars at specific race events.
7-6.10 Teams must provide a mounting for the recorder box. The recorder must be mounted in the
cockpit in a location accessible for download during pit stops.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by thePill

Actually, it looks like a pain in the ass to use forced induction.

Actually...compared to everything these guys have to deal with setting these cars up for? That sounds like small fish....a few sensors, increased cost and a little more oversight to make sure you aren't cheating.

Originally Posted by thePill

Now that I am reading into it, the Camaro has a 100lb advantage over the Mustang and M3 at 3200lbs. Forced induction might take them up to an unconformable spot.

The race car version, I assume you're talking about?

[thePill]

Here is the eligibility, I guess it has to be a production car now... I don't know if the drivetrain rule is still active or if that was an SCCA rule but the Camaro GS.R is not a production car...

3-1 Eligibility – All automobiles, chassis, bodywork and/or engines presented for competition to
GRAND-AM must be approved by GRAND-AM and conform to the rules, regulations and specifications for the various classes published in this rulebook.
3-1.1 GRAND-AM will determine and publish a list of specific eligible makes and models of
automobiles. Eligible cars will ordinarily be those described in manufacturer’s catalogs, produced at a
minimum rate of 500 units per year, and available for purchase through normal dealer outlets 30 days or more prior to competing in an event. Exemption from minimum production requirements must be approved by GRAND-AM.
3-1.2 Equipment will not be considered as having been approved by reason of having passed through inspection unobserved.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by thePill

Here is the eligibility, I guess it has to be a production car now... I don't know if the drivetrain rule is still active or if that was an SCCA rule but the Camaro GS.R is not a production car...

3-1 Eligibility – All automobiles, chassis, bodywork and/or engines presented for competition to
GRAND-AM must be approved by GRAND-AM and conform to the rules, regulations and specifications for the various classes published in this rulebook.
3-1.1 GRAND-AM will determine and publish a list of specific eligible makes and models of
automobiles. Eligible cars will ordinarily be those described in manufacturer’s catalogs, produced at a
minimum rate of 500 units per year, and available for purchase through normal dealer outlets 30 days or more prior to competing in an event. Exemption from minimum production requirements must be approved by GRAND-AM.
3-1.2 Equipment will not be considered as having been approved by reason of having passed through inspection unobserved.

No it's not, but the Chevy Camaro is. Line 3-1 states that all modifications for competition must conform to the rules published by Grand Am. The rules aren't listed in the above.

As I read it -- so long as the car is a regular production car, made in quantities over 500 units and their respective "race car" treatments conform to the 'rules' listed somewhere...it's good.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Actually...compared to everything these guys have to deal with setting these cars up for? That sounds like small fish....a few sensors, increased cost and a little more oversight to make sure you aren't cheating.


The race car version, I assume you're talking about?

Yeah, BMW and Ford were forced to add more weight last year to "make it more competitive". BMW complained about the GTs last year and Ford was ordered to restrict the engine. I'm not sure if the new 5.0 is restricted or not but Team Roush just changed over to it. Looking at the practice laps for Daytona shows the Multimatic Boss 302R being very fast and consistent.. The race weights are

Audi S4 2010
3100

BMW M3 E92 2008-
3300

BMW M3 Coupe (3.2) 2001-2004
3000

BMW Z4 M Coupe (3.2) 2007
2900

Chevrolet Camaro
3200

Dodge Challenger
3200

Ford Mustang GT (5.0) 2005
3300

Ford Mustang Boss 302
3300

Hyundai Genesis
Specifications TBD

Nissan 350Z (3.5) 2003 - 2006
2900

Nissan 370Z (3.7) 2010
2900

Pontiac GTO 2004 ( 5,7) 2005
3050

Porsche 997 (3.6) 2005 -2007
2950

Porsche 997 (3.6) 2005 -2007
2925

[Mr. Wyndham]

crybabies...

[thePill]

Heres the full Camaro GS Vehicle Classification Form

Chevrolet Camaro 2010 GS As provided by Chevrolet, built by Riley Technologies, Phone # 704-663-6319 & approved by Grand-Am.
Final Drive: 3.45
Fuel capacity: 20
Weight: 3200
Tire size 275/35/18.
Stock, unmodified, LS-3 engine. No internal engine modifications are permitted unless listed. Must use Bosch ECU, contact Bosch, Phone # (248) 876-2137 Sportscar Challenge Regulations 7-8.2 through 7-8.11 are not applicable to this listing. Must use complete unmodified OEM air intake system. Must use air inlet restrictor as supplied by Grand-Am. Maximum RPM 6600 Engine must be sealed as provided by CRD Motorsports Contact Bobby Cronin (704) 792-1955

Engines may be built by any engine builder. Engine must be submitted to CRD for physical inspection and power audit. Engine physical inspection will include a visual inspection of the crank, rods and pistons. Physical inspection will include an evaluation of cylinder head ports (intake and exhaust.) Physical inspection will include an evaluation of camshaft events. Physical inspection will include an evaluation of intake manifold and throttle bodies. Power audit will include running engine on dynamometer to establish compliance to Grand-Am accepted power levels. Audit will include spark and fuel slew to confirm max power level. If engine is found compliant in both physical inspection and power audit documentation of engine number and seal number will be recorded on-site and provided to Grand-Am. Engine will be sealed and returned to customer.

Approved Modifications
1. Caliper upgrade as per rules.
2. Battery relocation to right rear of trunk.
3. May use Bosch ECU. Contact Bosch, Phone # (248) 876-2137
4. Dry Sump (two stage)

Permitted replacement components
1. Rear toe link offset bushing, part # Y27-016, Riley Technologies, Phone # 704-663-6319
2. Single piece drive shaft, part # Y24-001, Riley Technologies, Phone # 704-663-6319
3. Replace rod bolts.
4. Dry sump pan, part # Y21-1005M, Riley Technologies, Phone # 704-663-6319
5. May use Light weight doors, part # Y01LH / Y01RH, Riley Technologies, Phone # 704-663-6319
6. May use Light weight hood, part # Y01- HOOD, Riley Technologies, Phone # 704-663-6319
7. May use Light weight deck lid, part # Y01- DECKLID, Riley Technologies, Phone # 704-663-6319
8. May use Grand-AM approved ABS controller.
9. Offset 1⁄2 inch differential mount bushing, Riley Technologies. Phone # 704-663-6319
10. Rear brake caliper from V-6 model
11. Permitted Riley Technologies front trailing arm bushing. (P/N Y12-015, 016, COM 14-T70)
12. Permitted Riley Technologies Throw out slave cylinder. (P/N TBD) 13. Permitted Aftermarket RAM single-disc Clutch/Flywheel. (P/N TBD)

[LYCAN]

Good post...

[snakekiller]

Comparison: 2011 Chevrolet Camaro SS Convertible vs. 2011 Ford Mustang GT Convertible

link:http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz1CDHv4bU8
First Place
Mustang GT Convertible: A loveable and affordable performance car, top or no top. It's hard to overstate how wonderful the new 5.0 is.
Second Place
Chevrolet SS Convertible: While we prefer the convertible to coupe, the Camaro is just too flawed to challenge the Mustang's American performance hegemony.

[a_Username]

Now, we're well aware of the fact that for many (if not most) of the people out there buying Camaros and Mustangs, the decision is ultimately a faith-based one. No amount of logical, well-reasoned analysis will change any fanboy's mind. About anything.

There you have it folks. Motortrend has found the origin of subjectivity! BTW, his highlighted "serious, deep flaws" of the Camaro are nothing but opinions. He complained about the visibility, feel of the car, and steering wheel/shift knob design. I can appreaciate their attempt at trying to compare objective results, such as performance, but their picking winners and losers based on functionality over design is nothing more than a glorified opinion with a wide consumer base.

[porcupinekiller]

[snakekiller]

Originally Posted by a_Username

There you have it folks. Motortrend has found the origin of subjectivity! BTW, his highlighted "serious, deep flaws" of the Camaro are nothing but opinions. He complained about the visibility, feel of the car, and steering wheel/shift knob design. I can appreaciate their attempt at trying to compare objective results, such as performance, but their picking winners and losers based on functionality over design is nothing more than a glorified opinion with a wide consumer base.

their picking winners over the hole feel of the car, the mustang just felt better and sure was faster.

[porcupinekiller]

Originally Posted by snakekiller

their picking winners over the hole feel of the car, the mustang just felt better and sure was faster.

...and it's top didn't leak. Lol
Who cares what the mags say, the Camaro's a great car and they're gonna sell a bunch of the convertibles. It'll be nice seeing them out cruising. Buy what you like and enjoy!!

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by a_Username

There you have it folks. Motortrend has found the origin of subjectivity! BTW, his highlighted "serious, deep flaws" of the Camaro are nothing but opinions. He complained about the visibility, feel of the car, and steering wheel/shift knob design. I can appreaciate their attempt at trying to compare objective results, such as performance, but their picking winners and losers based on functionality over design is nothing more than a glorified opinion with a wide consumer base.