Camaro VS Mustang Mega Thread

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by thePill

Like I said.. think out of the box GM.. If the steel is stronger, you need less of it. Change your castings, make them thinner.. that is where your weight savings comes from...

Edit: Yes Aluminum is expensive, because until now it didn't have a direct competitor for vehicle applications. What this boils down to is the Steel industry and the Aluminum industry fighting for superiority. Aluminum is weak but light weight and expensive, expensive because they could be at the time... If Boron challenges Aluminum the price will come down on both...

Do I think the Camaro is safe after I seen the diagram for UHSS?... No... Is it safer than the previous Camaro's? I think so...

You are listening to a Ford website. Boron steel is "old" technology. It's been around a long time. Boron won't challenge aluminum as both have been around for quite a while. The business case for both is very well known. As i said, GM uses Boron Steel. You make it sound like it should be in every part. It can't be and GM knows this and it is part of the knowledge base GM uses.

GM has very well thought out strategies for material applications. They were used on the Camaro. Because a Boron Website or Ford claims make you think otherwise, I apparently can't convince you that the Camaro isn't heavy because of lack of material applications. It's a BIG car.

And Aluminium is a cost for raw material as much as processing. The price doesn't come down. GM has PUSHED for aluminium for years and trust me, that doesn't make the price come down.

You have some good understanding, but you need to dig deeper on the applications. You can't make a car of 70% Boron Steel.

There are DP steels, Bake Hardened Steels all with specific applications. Some can be formed, some are more difficult. Some have spring back characteristics that are ok, others make it dimensionally difficult to use for certain applications. GM knows this as well as anyone.

Oh, and if you are judging safety purely on pretty picutures of material applications, you are really falling for some marketing fluff. Go by the test results, plain and simple. It's the engineering and application that you want, not simply the material. That's what engineering is about.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by Number 3

You are listening to a Ford website. Boron steel is "old" technology. It's been around a long time. Boron won't challenge aluminum as both have been around for quite a while. The business case for both is very well known. As i said, GM uses Boron Steel. You make it sound like it should be in every part. It can't be and GM knows this and it is part of the knowledge base GM uses.

GM has very well thought out strategies for material applications. They were used on the Camaro. Because a Boron Website or Ford claims make you think otherwise, I apparently can't convince you that the Camaro isn't heavy because of lack of material applications. It's a BIG car.

And Aluminium is a cost for raw material as much as processing. The price doesn't come down. GM has PUSHED for aluminium for years and trust me, that doesn't make the price come down.

You have some good understanding, but you need to dig deeper on the applications. You can't make a car of 70% Boron Steel.

There are DP steels, Bake Hardened Steels all with specific applications. Some can be formed, some are more difficult. Some have spring back characteristics that are ok, others make it dimensionally difficult to use for certain applications. GM knows this as well as anyone.

Today? No.. You can't make an entire car 70% Boron... Today though... We are up to 50% in some applications.. Just saying NO, it can't be done, its a dangerous mindset.. Cost is a factor, and always will be but as a man that sits in GMs pocket, you better open up. There are alot of things that could have been done to the current car to avoid weight and at least get a 5 star crash test rating... but it wasn't....

I only hope that someone like you has their big toe in the production process of the 6th Gen, because the current philosophy cannot exist after 2016...

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by snakekiller

The truth hurts, people just chose to ignore it, you either think they are full of it, or you don't.

Oh, I assure you....the facepalm had absolutely nothing to do with truth.

Originally Posted by thePill

Today? No.. You can't make an entire car 70% Boron... Today though... We are up to 50% in some applications.. Just saying NO, it can't be done, its a dangerous mindset.. Cost is a factor, and always will be but as a man that sits in GMs pocket, you better open up. There are alot of things that could have been done to the current car to avoid weight and at least get a 5 star crash test rating... but it wasn't....

I only hope that someone like you has their big toe in the production process of the 6th Gen, because the current philosophy cannot exist after 2016...

No offense....but after reading all of Number 3s input...and talking to him on the side...It seems there is a metric $h!t-ton of considerations you are ignoring because "boron" sounds good. And assuming that GM is full of blockhead engineers that don't know what they're doing isn't a real solid case, either....many other automakers wish they had the talent and resources GM has at its disposal....

[thePill]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Oh, I assure you....the facepalm had absolutely nothing to do with truth.


No offense....but after reading all of Number 3s input...and talking to him on the side...It seems there is a metric $h!t-ton of considerations you are ignoring because "boron" sounds good. And assuming that GM is full of blockhead engineers that don't know what they're doing isn't a real solid case, either....many other automakers wish they had the talent and resources GM has at its disposal....

There is no such thing as a "blockhead engineer".. and Boron is good, this is not from a Ford site, this is the answer to expensive aluminum. GM left Boron out of the Camaro because people at that time had no idea what it was. Now you have Honda's with frames that are almost bulletproof and weigh a fraction of what they use to. If the tech is old, then everyone should have it, unless you go the way of the Solid rear axle and say its as good as it can get...

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by thePill

There is no such thing as a "blockhead engineer".. and Boron is good, this is not from a Ford site, this is the answer to expensive aluminum. GM left Boron out of the Camaro because people at that time had no idea what it was. Now you have Honda's with frames that are almost bulletproof and weigh a fraction of what they use to. If the tech is old, then everyone should have it, unless you go the way of the Solid rear axle and say its as good as it can get...

Did you read the same posts from # 3 that I did?

Boron-Alloy Steel isn't a competitor to aluminum...it's an alternate UHSS to others, like martensite steel. Engineers left it out of the Camaro because they used other versions of UHSS in its place (like the one I mentioned) for reasons their own...a few of which I'm sure are centered around its inability to be formed and inability to be galvanized. And where it COULD have been used (for no particular reason)...100 lbs weight savings is a pipe-dream.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Did you read the same posts from # 3 that I did?

Boron-Alloy Steel isn't a competitor to aluminum...it's an alternate UHSS to others, like martensite steel. Engineers left it out of the Camaro because they used other versions of UHSS in its place (like the one I mentioned) for reasons their own...a few of which I'm sure are centered around its inability to be formed and inability to be galvanized. And where it COULD have been used (for no particular reason)...100 lbs weight savings is a pipe-dream.

Although steel and aluminum do not contend directly, there was always a fear that aluminum would over take steel as the primary metal used in vehicles in the future. High strength steels are the future of the automobile because weight savings and high crash test standards are making them so.

The Fiesta alone reduced its curb weight by 88lbs by using Boron and UHSS and it has a very small frame to begin with. Imagine using those methods on an automobile with a larger frame. Although Boron cannot be galvanized, there are methods being used for corrosion protection. There is a process being used today (even with regular steel) called "Hot Dip Galvanization", It is being used on Iron, Steel and Aluminum because the process of adding a thin layer of Zinc to just the outside is cheaper and more effective than actually forging the Zinc into the metal.

Hot Dipping isn't a new process but now that Boron is becoming more widely used, HDG Boron will become the standard galvanization process for this steel. There will always be ways to overcome problems if you really look into them, instead of crossing your arms and shaking your head no... Although the ability to work with Boron will still be a challenge, especially for auto body repair, As you can see on the internet, the auto body guys are figuring it out....

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by thePill

The Fiesta alone reduced its curb weight by 88lbs by using Boron and UHSS and it has a very small frame to begin with. Imagine using those methods on an automobile with a larger frame. Although Boron cannot be galvanized, there are methods being used for corrosion protection. There is a process being used today (even with regular steel) called "Hot Dip Galvanization", It is being used on Iron, Steel and Aluminum because the process of adding a thin layer of Zinc to just the outside is cheaper and more effective than actually forging the Zinc into the metal.

The Camaro already makes extensive use of a myriad of UHSS. That's why the weight savings is very debatable. Anywhere the Boron-alloy could be used...other UHSS is already utilized...there's little benefit.

And I'm aware of hot-dipped galvanization....I can assure you from experience with building construction materials...it's not all it's cracked up to be. It's definitely better than paint.....but that's about as far as it goes compared to other methods. While it might be cheaper...I imagine there are internal durability tests it would have to pass...

Originally Posted by thePill

Hot Dipping isn't a new process but now that Boron is becoming more widely used, HDG Boron will become the standard galvanization process for this steel. There will always be ways to overcome problems if you really look into them, instead of crossing your arms and shaking your head no...

Nobody's shaking their head no....Several just aren't subscribing to the miracle-cure image the material is being given. It's one of several methods that can be used to reduce weight and increase strength on vehicles...but I'm of the opinion: "let the engineers figure out which method is best suited to their application." There is no one-size fits all.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

The Camaro already makes extensive use of a myriad of UHSS. That's why the weight savings is very debatable. Anywhere the Boron-alloy could be used...other UHSS is already utilized...there's little benefit.

And I'm aware of hot-dipped galvanization....I can assure you from experience with building construction materials...it's not all it's cracked up to be. It's definitely better than paint.....but that's about as far as it goes compared to other methods. While it might be cheaper...I imagine there are internal durability tests it would have to pass...


Nobody's shaking their head no....Several just aren't subscribing to the miracle-cure image the material is being given. It's one of several methods that can be used to reduce weight and increase strength on vehicles...but I'm of the opinion: "let the engineers figure out which method is best suited to their application." There is no one-size fits all.

Extensive is a powerful word, You and I both know that UHSS isn't extensively used in the '10 Camaro. If it were used, I could see a solid 100lb reduction in weight and an increase in impact measurements by 20% on the sides. This is the future.. HDG is the future... Aluminum is good, but it will stay on the outside... Most current Aluminum is Hot dipped anyway.... We should embrace the things being accomplished now, regardless of our current purchase.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by thePill

Extensive is a powerful word, You and I both know that UHSS isn't extensively used in the '10 Camaro. If it were used, I could see a solid 100lb reduction in weight and an increase in impact measurements by 20% on the sides. This is the future.. HDG is the future...

I just don't see it as you do, I guess...a favorite quote of mine is "There are many paths to the future."...we see it every day, and I trust the professionals to do what they need to....they don't need "bench-engineer" input. Specifically, weight savings claims are completely irrelevant unless it's actually been done on the application in question in order to compare.

Just as an aside to illustrate my trust -- they worked through over 150 stampings to get the rear-quarter steel thickness/shape/quality right instead of taking an easy way out...I'm not worried one bit. If the next platform has a stress on mass reduction, then I believe it will get done by whatever means they deem necessary.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of alloy metals and new materials with unique strength/weight characteristics...but I know enough about them to understand they aren't all suited the same to all applications...or else there'd only be one.

Originally Posted by thePill

Aluminum is good, but it will stay on the outside... Most current Aluminum is Hot dipped anyway....

Yes, because aluminum doesn't corrode like steel. It doesn't require the same level of protection.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I just don't see it as you do, I guess...a favorite quote of mine is "There are many paths to the future."...we see it every day, and I trust the professionals to do what they need to....they don't need "bench-engineer" input. Specifically, weight savings claims are completely irrelevant unless it's actually been done on the application in question in order to compare.

Just as an aside to illustrate my trust -- they worked through over 150 stampings to get the rear-quarter steel thickness/shape/quality right instead of taking an easy way out...I'm not worried one bit. If the next platform has a stress on mass reduction, then I believe it will get done by whatever means they deem necessary.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of alloy metals and new materials with unique strength/weight characteristics...but I know enough about them to understand they aren't all suited the same to all applications...or else there'd only be one.

Yes, because aluminum doesn't corrode like steel. It doesn't require the same level of protection.

I understand your passion, but what did the 1967 Camaros do to avoid the horrible trials of everyday wear and tear.. They had nothing... but they still survived.. No coating, no galvanization, no impact standards..they had nothing... but they are here non the less... 45 years later...

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by thePill

I understand your passion, but what did the 1967 Camaros do to avoid the horrible trials of everyday wear and tear.. They had nothing... but they still survived.. No coating, no galvanization, no impact standards..they had nothing... but they are here non the less... 45 years later...

Right, they are...but how many are originals and not clones put together more recently?

Anyways, you raise a good point, but I think that can be attributed primarily to the direct result of excellence in maintenance and TLC on the part of the owner. Paints were much more resilient back then, too...even if they weren't the nicest chemicals to work with. No car of that era has survived unscathed if driven regularly like the Cobalts and Foci of today...

[thePill]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Right, they are...but how many are originals and not clones put together more recently?

Anyways, you raise a good point, but I think that can be attributed primarily to the direct result of excellence in maintenance and TLC on the part of the owner. Paints were much more resilient back then, too...even if they weren't the nicest chemicals to work with. No car of that era has survived unscathed if driven regularly like the Cobalts and Foci of today...

Good points or not, C5 should do a Live Skype argument with the S197 site..Live, for others to see... Doesn't matter who's right, but it builds interest and you can let members argue in real time... Forget the "Space metal" argument. build the fanbase...

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by thePill

Good points or not, C5 should do a Live Skype argument with the S197 site..Live, for others to see... Doesn't matter who's right, but it builds interest and you can let members argue in real time... Forget the "Space metal" argument. build the fanbase...

That could be interesting. We are having a Camaro5Fest, in a couple of months....

[thePill]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

That could be interesting. We are having a Camaro5Fest, in a couple of months....

If I were you, I would contact a known 197 site... It would be very fun...